Ask TimmyChuck a question ...   •   I'm going to sign off today. I accomplished exactly what I came to do. There, within the 2,462 messages on this topic is everything the next Spamhaus victim needs to arrange their lawsuit. Linford tried to tell you people to shut up - but too many of you are enamored of your special cleverness. More - e360 is going to eat you.   •   At last you are back. Wow - someone who can carry on a reasonable discussion. It has been terribly boring here without you. I was beginning to think that all there was here was "replicated Susans."   •   I liked Tim Bolen's article. What is your involvement with him. Did he get you disbarred?   •   I ran your name on google and find that you are a disbarred attorney. What's that all about? Did the Bar Association seek some truth from you?   •   What truth are you seeking?   •   Have you been watching the news lately? It looks as though the US government is clamping down hard (pun intended) on the breast cancer surgeons and their excessive mammograms used to solicit unnecessary surgeries. In fact all breast cancer surgeries are under investigation. It turns out that after all these years breast cancer surgery does nothing to prolong life. It just makes breast cancer surgeons, and their hospitals, richer.   •   So I did a little investigation. I went to Tim Bolen's website www.bolenreport.net and I found his most recent article. It is titled "Orac the Nipple Ripper." It doesn't look to me like he is describing someone who saves anybody's life. In fact the opposite.   •   Lawyer up kiddies. Checkmate in four....   •   I know this will make the holiday period bleak for many of you, but, what the heck... It will a minor inconvenience compared to what will happen after the first of the year.   •   Although, for you, the news will be grim, keep in mind that nothing much in the way of "depositions" of the US volunteers will happen until after the first of the year. However, my guess will be that e360's legal team has most likely prepared a significant amount of legal paperwork in preparation for demanding "collection discovery." So, my guess is that there will be a lot of Subpoena's issued to the US volunteers demanding specific discovery information. A trick common in Federal Court litigation is to demand a ton of questions asked, and answered, in writing, and have them due on December 27th, or so, of that year - forcing the respondent to spend their holidays dredging up records.   •   I'm going to make an educated guess here, and say that Judge Korkoras will probably want to clear the e360 v Spamhaus case off his calendar so he can spend time with his family over the holidays. Which means he will probably issue a decision the week before the US Thanksgiving holiday weekend. So be prepared for that.   •   No wonder you hide behind fake identities. You need all the help, and support, you can get - even if you have to make up internet identities to get it.   •   Then, you ran... leaving the volunteers holding the bag - especially the US volunteers, those that put up the money to hire Jenner & Block to try and stave off disaster. A disaster caused by YOU.   •   Phishy (Steve Linford): By now, I'd guess, most people in the world, and certainly those in this discussion group, have figured out that to rely on YOUR legal analysis is tantamount to drinking Jim Jones's Cool-Aid. Perhaps never before in the history of the legal world has a legal position "We're in Britain (tee hee!, tee hee!) and you have to come here and sue us, and put all of the money for our defense in advance, blah, blah, blah..." been so quickly shut down.   •   Checkmate in four...   •   We need to keep in mind, also, that if Linford runs, or fails to follow, quickly, the Orders of the Federal Judge in the case, Jenner & Block will, without doubt, petition the Court to remove themselves as Defendant's counsel instantly. That means that, for all practical purposes, the US volunteers will be at the mercy of e360's legal assault squad - unless they, each, go out and quickly hire their own legal counsel...   •   And about Susan - when you say "And go to prison for kidnapping" you indicate that you do not understand the process that would unfold. If, after the Formal Demand for Payment is made, Linford runs, and I think we all suspect that that is exactly what he'll do, e360 will simply petition the Court for "collection discovery." One of the first things they'd ask for is the right to depose the US volunteers they already are aware of. Susan would be a good first choice, for it would be a safe bet that she'd cave in, after finding out from the attorneys what will occur of she refuses to give up ALL information they want. Why is that? Because when a US Federal Judge tells you to do something you have only two real choices: (1) do it quickly, or (2) do it even quicker.   •   What you are describing here, above, is a process known as "Contempt of Court." Frankly, I think e360 would RELISH that action as they could then ask the Judge to issue Arrest Warrants.   •   When you say "Then it begins - for e360 will simply make a new Demand for "Collection Discovery." "And that demand will equally be not met. " "First on the list will be a Demand for names, dates, IP addresses.... " "And that demand will be equally not met."   •   When you said "So are you trying to claim that there are US persons who are shareholders of Spamhaus?" That's not MY claim. That is Spamhaus's claim. They were the ones who provided the clear and concise legal description of the makeup of their organization when they said, on their website for all to read "Spamhaus is made up of volunteers from all over the world."   •   Once again you are ALMOST there...   •   HTH   •   It is all very simple - and should begin very soon.   •   An, if Linford takes too long I imagine e360 will simply grab Susan, and sit her down in a Conference Room in front of a video camera.   •   How will the identities of the US volunteers be gained? Easy. Once the Decision Amount is announced a Demand for Payment will be made to the Spamhaus corporate structure - and as we all know that Demand will not be met. Then it begins - for e360 will simply make a new Demand for "Collection Discovery." First on the list will be a Demand for names, dates, IP addresses....   •   E360 need only claim that Spamhaus is simply the alterrgo of the "volunteers," especially the US volunteers. At this point each of the identified US volunteers would be required to get their own separate legal representation.   •   In general, courts apply a two-part test when alter ego is alleged. The court will set aside the corporate shield against personal liability if it finds first that there is a unity of interest between the corporation and the shareholders, then the degree of injustice if the corporate protection remains in place and, finally, the fraudulent intent of the shareholders."   •   Below is a website that can give you the bones of the legal argument that will ensue. It is very clear and concise. As it says: "Alter ego is a theory used to penetrate the protection provided by a corporation to its shareholders. An attorney will claim that the corporation is the alter ego of its shareholders. Obviously, this claim is typically made when there are only a few shareholders, to wit, most small businesses. If the court agrees, the corporate protection is set aside and each shareholder becomes jointly liable for all the debts of the business. Obviously, this represents a disaster for most small businesses.   •   You are very much heading in the right direction here. English Common Law, the basis for the legal systems in Britain, Canada, and the US makes it very clear that, as you said, "A person is always responsible for that person's own actions." That's the legal point where the Spamhaus US volunteers will find their demise. The idea that they would get away with their actions because they were not known at the time of lawsuit, or that they hid behind a foreign corporate veil, will not stand in the US Federal Courts. Once the Decision Amount is announced in the 360 v Spamhaus case, you'll begin to see how this is going to play out.   •   Tell me something, please. If you were to turn around right now and find Tim Bolen standing there six feet away would your heart stop?   •   I can't help but get the impression that it is terribly important for you to hide behind, probably, a series of remailer addresses.   •   Never mind - the sale is now over. And to think I "trusted" you...   •   I called looking for you the other day, but they said you were busy washing your boss's car, and that after that you were to sweep up the parking lot, and paint over the grafiti on the trash container - so you wouldn't be able to pick me up some bird seed.   •   Be careful Michael. If you make him mad he might put you on his website with odd colors, and create a blog about you.   •   I get the impression that Polevoy sort of makes things up as he goes along...   •   I think everyone here, if they don't actually know, at least suspects, that the REAL Spamhaus, in the form of the "volunteers," are now, and always have been, a conglomeration of competitors to e360, and others, who used their secret group to eliminate internet marketing competition. "Collection Discovery" will bring that out - and the fun will begin.   •   Everything involving the e360 v Spamhaus case is going to work out the way it will work out - period. Getting angry and upset over it isn't going to change the result. What's going to happen is going to happen - and it should.   •   You need to stay calmer. You work yourself up - frothing over a simple conversation. Then you react strangely.   •   Advice - don't invite this guy over for dinner...   •   I am certainly glad you made an appearance. It was beginning to get a little boring.   •   Since you have made some claims here lets look at your credibility...   •   He said that you live in your own world, and that you are justifiably unhappy with yourself.   •   So, which is it? Choice number one or number two? Don't let primal fear stand in your way. Identify yourself.   •   Then too, since Tim Bolen talks there about "his friend" Hulda Clark, I can see why you would want to remain hidden.   •   I couldn't help but notice, too, though that you cannot get facts straight, or you don't want to. A quick reading of the Hulda Clark commemarative website shows that she did NOT die of cancer. Certainly this woman never killed thousands of people. She sold millions of books, and was totally a public person. Had even one person died from her activities the goverment would have acted long ago.   •   Gee, so many possibilities.   •   But then, as I read further, it came to me that you could be the attorney Christopher Grell that Bolen just wrote about.   •   At first I thought you might be someone named Terry Polevoy, who Bolen writes about, for Polevoy has certainly been frustrated by Bolen. Polevoy writes MOSTLY about Bolen, and has devoted a good part of his life to trying to fend him off.   •   So I focused on the second possiblilty, doing some simple research - and I began to laugh as I read specific articles that might give me a clue as to who you might be. I read the latest ten articles on the front page of the www.bolenreport.com website. There I found a list of suspects - all of which would most likely piss their pants if Tim Bolen were to find them involved in this sort of activity.   •   Since the first list (1) (a) and (b) is somewhat obvious, and will be revealed during "collection discovery" I decided to leave that alone until "collection discovery" takes place - which should start relatively soon - right after the judgment amount is announced and the demand for payment is denied or ignored.   •   I made two determinations up front: (1) (a) You are a higher-up in the Spamhaus US volunteer community and you are getting very uncomfortable with me pointing out to others what is about to happen, or (b) you are Steve Linford using one more aliases trying to pretend you have more resources than you actually have. Or (2) you are one of those people who have found themselves frustrated in their objectives after a confrontation with Tim Bolen.   •   You've gone to great lengths to hide your identity from him, so I took the time to do some investigation and analysis towards making a determination of who, exactly, you might be.   •   Clearly, you are very much afraid of me also.   •   I read your posts with wonderment, and the only thing I could derive from them was that you, personally, have some serious issues with Tim Bolen, and that you, personally, are very much afraid to confront him man to man.   •   My guess is that Mark Ferguson, and others like him, after the Judgment Amount decision in rthe e360 v Spamhaus case is presented will be on the forefront of the anti-spam movement. He'll be all that's left.   •   That was the smart thing for him to do. Continuing the case through trial would have completely - drained him financially, and he most likely would have lost in the end. This way he is available to fight another day - unlike the Spamhaus US volunteers will be.   •   You are controverting the official Spamhaus legal position which says "we do not do business in the US." Be careful - Spamhaus might sue you for defamation?   •   I know that several people on this group live in a virtual world, but still, it is really a good idea to actually check facts...   •   I'm missing some data here - or you are?   •   Have you ever shown any of your writings to your mother? Don't - because you might not be invited for Thanksgiving dinner. You especially wouldn't be allowed to bring anything to share.   •   You cannot have it both ways - either Spamhaus DOES do business in the US, or as they officially claim, it DOES NOT do business in the US.   •   I suggest you leave the legal analysis to those who CAN grasp the basics.   •   If you take the time to re-read your argument you will find that it lacks logic, and basic common sense. Certainly, you fail to grasp the nuances of the legal process pervading the e360 v Spamhaus case. Having read some of your earlier posts I'm not surprised.   •   While you're out today picking up food for the workers would you mind stopping by a Petco and picking me up a bag of bird seed? That's a good boy...   •   It's that easy.   •   Of course people can be held responsible for their actions - that's waht common law is all about. And, in Spamhaus's case the yannounced their ;egal intentions on their website when they said "Spamhaus is made up of volunteers from all over the world." Did these volunteers actually think they were somehow immune because they were hiding their identities and weren't individually named? Wrong. They are going to be identified after the judgment amount is set - and they will pay for their performances.   •   Yes, I like your comment about "pussies." You are correct that is the Spamhaus way.   •   What I also agree with you on is the "moron" comment. Just think - this is the group that has assigned themselves the function of stopping spam worldwide - and that doesn't give me, or you, a good feeling about the problem solution, now does it.   •   Despite the fact that I approve of your upfront method of problem solving I think you are going to lose badly in Federal Court - and that will cost you dearly. I think you let your emotions get in your way trying to solve spam issues. You should take your lumps and look, immediately, towards settlement.   •   A process called "collection discovery" will begin. And, it will be fun to watch...   •   Now, when the Judge in the case decides the amount of the judgment ($180 million?), and the Demand for payment is presented, the real fun in the case will begin - the collection process. And, who will be collected from? The "performers" of course. No judge is going to beleive that Spamhaus is Steve Linford and all the phoney names he comes up with.   •   No, Huey, Spamhaus is not the "big boys." It is simply a group of very terrified nitwits who thought they were being clever when the formed up into a secret consturction using the ruse that "we are in Britain, blah, blah, blah..." The "terror" comes fro mthe fact that their construction was smashed in the very first court hearing in Illinois.   •   Your comment about MAPS was kind of self explanatory for MAPS was sued into non-existence, wasn't it?   •   I'm curious just what "position of trust" you hold. It looks to me that you are a simple IT for a very small ISP. Just what do they trust you to do? Empty the wastbasket? Pick up sandwiches from Subway? Clean the bathrooms?   •   No one knows what the Special Master in the e360 v Spamhaus case will bring to the table - but Special Masters don't get assigned to "nothing" cases. There is something afoot, and these people have MUCH to worry about.   •   Is that spider hole in Tikrit still available? Maybe Susan would rent your garage?   •   Why? Because when they are identified they're going to be hunted by their victims. I think the best thing e360 could do would be to publish the identities, including addresses, of the US volunteers. Theat would be a fun situation to watch.   •   If you think about it, Mark, you are dealing with manhood issues here. You, Mark Ferguson, "act like a man," in your anti-spam activities and the Spamhaus US volunteers wear silk panties, and, of course, are very much afraid to come out and play with the big boys.   •   Your being here at all pomoting your own ethical way of handling problems poses a standing embarassment for the Spamhaus US volunteers - for it is of utmost importance to THEM that they maintain their invisibility - and, of course, it won't continue much beyond the "collection discovery" phase of the e360 v Spamhaus case. The largest of the embarassments is that their "we're in Britain..." pitch didn't last beyond the first hearing in Judge Korkoras's Courtroom - and the laughter was unbearable to the "tee hee, we're in Britain" people.   •   But, your philosophy is diametrically opposed to the others, those that have taken a dishonest approach, pretending that their organization is based in Britain "and you have to come here and sue us, and pit up all the money or our defense... blah, blah, blah, (tee hee, tee hee, tee hee)..."   •   You, and others like you, deal with spam issues openly, and are willing to put your money where your mouth is - so to speak. You stand behind your claims, using your own name, and your own assets.   •   There are very obvious reasons why some of these people personally attack you, and it all has to do with competing philosophies on how to deal with spam or any other issue.   •   You never did identify those attorneys you said were on here explaining things. Could you do that right now?   •   So, from your post i get the idea that you have moved from being a locomotive engineer to just having a loco motive?   •   And, the anti-spam movement needs leadership right now, as the Spamhaus ship sinks, demoralizing everyone.   •   Don't get so worked up. This is just a simple discussion. If you want to be a leader in any community then you need to act like one. Screaming isn't a good leadership trait.   •   So demonstrate... Enlighten us all with your legal expertise...   •   You, very much, sound like you are eight years old, and you are not your mother's favorite child.   •   HYH   •   Judge Korkoras could make his decisions any minute, and you are right to be VERY worried.   •   The bottom line here, despite all the sword waving (or in some cases "panty-waving), is that it would be a good idea, at this point, for individual Spamhaus US volunteers to get some professional counseling on asset protection strategies, including some of the simple devices - like slapping the wife in public, have her file for a quicky divorce, give her the house, furniture, and cars. Also, change employers, so as to keep some paychecks coming in - getting away from the one at whose computer they were sitting when they damaged e360 - the one whose corporate counsel is not going to smile, kindly, at you.   •   I can see why there is so much anger. It's based on a deep-seated, and very justified, fear of the future on the part of the Spamhaus US volunteers.   •   As you know, despite the "great denial" espoused here on NANAE, e360 legally raped Spamhaus in US Federal Court and will continue to do so, once the Judgment Amount has been decided by Judge Korkoras and the Demand for Payment is made and Linford tucks his tail between his legs one more time, and perhaps, runs off to Somalia?   •   It would be helpful to you if, and when, you stop getting your legal opinions from the same people who told us all that the GREAT LEGAL STRATEGY was "we're in Britain, so if you sue us you have to come here and put up all the money, blah, blah, blah..." Take a day off, look around. There is reality in the US legal world - but you won't find it with the people who designed that silly strategy.   •   Orville Redenbacher is in residence...   •   You are about to learn the reality of the US court system - once Linford runs, resists, or says "there's no money," the process will begin.   •   In a way I do hope that many of you will resist "collection discovery," for a good many of you need to feel what responsibility is really like. If they come for you at Deposition, Susan, I double-dare you to blow them off. A couple days, or a couple weeks, or even a couple of months, at the Cook County Woman's Facility will permanently adjust your attitude. You'll have a different look in your eye.   •   The fact is, though, that there is a strong lesson to be learned, one that will be most painful for the US volunteers. Your attempts to not prepare them for those difficult days is really not a good thing.   •   It is almost amusing to see the constant childishness approached here, in vain attempts to divert from the real issues. But "almost amusing" is the key phrase - for there is no real humor for me in the knowledge of how bad things are going to get for the Spamhaus people once Judge Korkoras renders his judgment amount - and what will follow.   •   It is clear that Mark Ferguson will fare no better in his day in court. But, what I will say is that Mark, unlike the Spamhaus contingency, acts like a man. He's right out there in front, using his own name, and his own assets, defending his beliefs about spam on the internet. No one at Spamhaus can make that claim. It's all sissy business - and the reasons are obvious.   •   Try and accept the fact that Spamhaus is virtually finished, and the US volunteers, despite heavy money spent with Jenner & Block to attempt to keep the collection dogs at bay, are going to live exciting lives once the "collection discovery" begins.   •   I know it must be very hard to accept defeat and take your lumps - but, you know, you're there...   •   Put the phrases " The REAL Spamhaus," "Collection Discovery" and "Special Master" into your daily mantra.   •   And, certainly Susan wouldn't last more than one night at the Cook County Facility.   •   Yup - I hope it does go the way you predict. THAT would be fun to watch. But, I doubt it, because I would assume that Jenner & Block would have already pointed out to Linford that a US Federal Arrest Warrant has a lifetime span, and those countries that do not have an Extradition Agreement with the US aren't very good places to live - like Somalia?   •   That's the way things work.   •   And, if Linford goes on the run, which I suspect he is planning to do, then e360 will simply ask the Judge to grab those volunteers in the US they already know about, and order them into a Deposition conducter by Synergy Group. There Susan would spill everything she knows - or she'll spend time locked up i nthe Cook County, illinois Womah's Facility until she gives them every last bit of information.   •   I like your statement "And, as we've just seen, the demand will be ignored." Frankly, I hope that that is what happens, for that will throw the case into a brand new dimension. But, I will assume that Jenner & Block have already councseled those paying their legal bills that ignoring such a Demand is not an option, and if they did such a thing two things would happen: (1) Jenner & Block would immediately withdraw from the case, and (2) Judge Korkoras would issue an Arrest Warrant for Linford.   •   I suspect that once the Spamhaus US volunteer list is made public there will be more lawsuits filed as I suspect that some of those volunteers were using their secret Spamhaus connection to damage their internet marketing competitors.   •   Once e360 has the names of the US volunteers then the collection process will begin in earnest. This is what Susan, and the others, don't want to hear about. They want to live in Pollyannaville.   •   Soon, the Judge in the e360 v Spamhaus case, with the advice of the Special Master, will decide on the Judgment Amount ($180 million?). When that happens a Legal Demand will be made for immediate payment - and, as we all know, Spamhaus will claim they have no money, or they won't answer at all. When that happens e360 will make a Motion for "Collection Discovery" and will demand the names of the Spamhaus volunteers, especially the US volunteers, who, we all know, are the REAL Spamhaus - and have been all along. Spamhaus will claim that Linford is the real Spamhaus - but they won't be able to sustain that claim.   •   I'm patiently waiting.   •   Just think, we might be able to work our way up to a series of good attorney jokes.   •   Andy, please, for all of us here, would you please point out which of these "posters" you think might know something about the inside of a courtroom - other than for being personally indicted? Please don't include those that sweep the floors at night, wipe the fingerprints off the railings, mop up the vomit, or sit there all day to keep out of the weather..   •   At first, so as to not embarass you, I decided to ignore your comment below. But, on afterthought, I decided that, perhaps, I should address this point below: "Again, why do you keep posting the same unsupported theories, over and over, when folks who practice in actual courtrooms are telling you that you're wrong?"   •   What I think happened is that Scott Richter, and his attorney father, knows where the bodies are buried - and made it clear what would happen if he continued to be left out of the internet market pie sharing. In short, Richter knows who the REAL Spamhaus is and what the motivaltions are behind the construction.   •   The fact that YOU don't know waht actaully happened says a lot about you.   •   So, in the case of Scott Richter, either there was discussion that solved his problems, or perhaps, a miracle occurred to get him of the top of the Spamhaus ROKSO list. I don't believe that a miracle happened here. Neither do you.   •   In court cases across the world Judges encourage the parties involved to solve their problems outside of the courtroom and bring a settlement to the court for approval. Usually these conversations contain acrimony, especially at first, so the court, basically, does not want to be in on the discussions - so there is no official record of what actually happened for the parties to come to agreement. All the public sees is that the case settled and is over.   •   Sometimes it is hard not to laugh at the so-called logic I see on this discussion group. But, it always a good idea to be polite and helpful to those that seem to be missing basic observation skills, I guess. So, I'll try.   •   Get comfortable with this idea.   •   And the US volunteers are the likely target. More, the Court will go for it, for there is no way anyone is going to make a convincing argument that Linford is Spamhaus - It is the volunteer "performers."   •   But, Andy, the reckoning will soon be here. And, I predict, that e360 will, because of the assault on them after the case was filed, will most likely proceed with the collection phase in the most brutal way it can. And it should.   •   But, e360 literally pounded the Spamhaus construction right from the start so well that Linford, probably literally, crapped his pants and RAN from the courtroom - probably whimpering. All that was able to happen was the a group of US volunteers put up some money to try and mitagate the massive damages to the anti-spam community, hiring Jenner & Block to try and stop the blood flow.   •   And the point is that this group's analysis of the legal situation is fatally flawed and has been right from the start. It is apparent that the perpetrators of this legal debacle are still attempting to defend their flagrant stupidity, and convince others that there was some actual merit to their offering. When there was not. And, all is NOT well.   •   When you said "As absolutely no one else here shares your point of view about how the e360 case is going to progress, you need to cite cases and precedence for your opinions (e.g. that people not named in a suit can somehow be liable for its outcome, without first being sued themselves)" you completely miss the point.   •   Chuck here. I can't answer for Tim Bolen - but the I think you are addressing your message to me, not Tim Bolen, so I will point out something very important.   •   Good idea! Do you suppose that the US volunteers might, you know, get ready to pay up?   •   You'll feel much better if you can slip into the present. It could be your first step towards life.   •   Try and sit still for a few moments, maybe have some milk and a cookie, and absorb the term "Colection Discovery."   •   No, but did you have some suggestions?   •   (ya a a a a wn)   •   We know you are for sale, and you are just bargaining... But why buy something you are going to be giving away for free?   •   It took you a while but you got it.   •   Have you ever thought about applying for a life?   •   Don't go crazy over one armed paper hangers.   •   I suggest that if you have a question for Tim Bolen that you address it to him directly. I believe his contact information can be found on his website www.bolenreport.net. It is appears to me that he might be too busy to answer you - but you never know.   •   You aren't vry good at this.   •   Hard to say about British law, for they, these days, seem to be in transition. If I were you iId just sort of play it by ear, so to speak. But, then, spamming may be a moot point, since no one seems able to actually do anything worthwhile about it - and ISPs make their own programs.   •   Do you need a connect-the-dots instruction?   •   Grasp reality. One day Scott Richter is at the top of the Rokso list, and the next dat Linford submiited his name to the Vatican for canonization into immediate Sainthood.   •   It was a joke. Loosen up.   •   This conversation has long gone beyond small insults. Come up to speed, please.   •   And, you are right to be worried.   •   The strain is showing. The phrase is "Busier than a one-armed paper hanger."   •   Just think...   •   I look forward to the process. What fun it will be to watch.   •   Susan: OK. So, they'll have to get a list from you this time then, right?   •   That's because that in France, sex with a thirteen year old is not against the law.   •   Depostions are never done in a Courtroom. You were probably in the Men's Room at a Wal-Mart somewhere.   •   You should look up facts before you comment on things. Your comment about Scott Richter was not well researched.   •   It won't be the local Sheriff who carries the warrant. It will be the US Marshall's Service, and they have offices attached to every US Embassy in the world. But, the Marshalls wouldn't have to look for anyone - for the local authorities would get the warrant and act on it.   •   An Arrest Warrant issued by a Federal Court in the US will be honored by most of Planet Earth.   •   You have your hopes up - but your knowledge of the law is sadly lacking.   •   You have an important point: Scott Richter was the one who sued SpamCop - and interestingly enough, Spamhaus settled (without being sued). Think about THAT.   •   But, keep up the good work. It certainly is a more rewarding activity than face piercing, isn't it?   •   It looks like you've been spending a little time with your Civics teacher - but you still have it wrong. Amicus Briefs are not usually submitted (you have to have permission from the court ahead of time) during a case. They normally are filed during the Appeal Court or Supreme Court level process.   •   Really curious...   •   As I recall YOU have already, once, been deposed i nthis case. Is that right? If so, what names of US volunteers did you give e360 at that time? I'll bet it wasn't the list you put here, now was it?   •   It is all very simple.   •   More, though, the exposure of who the Spamhaus volunteers are will most likely engender more lawsuits against volunteers from others.   •   Once the information is recieved, then new Motions will be brought to the Court, mostly pointing out to the Judge who the REAL Spamhaus actually is, by showing who actually "performed" the damaging acts against e360 and others.   •   The wikipedia write up simplifies what will happen. e360 will write up an Order for the Judge's signature demanding the names of all of the Spamhaus volunteers, contractors, emails, bank accounts, etc. Linford (Jenner & Block) will have just a few days to turn over ALL of the data. If he doesn't, then this just below will apply: You can read the whole section here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_court   •   Once the judgment amount is determined, some paperwork will flow, Linford will whine or run (if he runs Jenner & Block will dump Spamhaus), and the "collection discovery" will begin. If Linford refuses the demand, or has fled, then e360 will fille an Order for Contempt, and the Judge will issue an Arrest Order for him.   •   Lots of scammers try to hide behind a fake entity to do their deceptions, and it is easy to trip them up - just like e360 did in the beginning to Spamhaus. There is NO POSSIBILITY that spamhaus will be able to sustain the construction that Steve Linford is Spamhaus, and that it is really based in Britain. Give that idea up.   •   I know it is hard to accept that something other than the original Spamhaus fake story that "We're in Britain, blah, blah, blah," would be believed by the US Court system - but the US court system, unlike the anit-spammer community, does not live in a virtual reality of its own making. It is real - 24 hours a day.   •   Just think - Susan could be held in a jail cell until she identifies all the volunteers! !!! Or, maybe she already has?   •   Now you're getting to the fun part - for when e360 demands "collection discovery" and Spamhaus refuses, then the Judge will give Spamhaus ONE chance to honor the Court's Order regarding "collection Discovery." Then, when it is still refused or ignored, the Judge will issue an Arrest Warrant for Linford. That warrant will be honored in every country in the world that has an extradition agreement with the US - which is most of them. If Linford runs, like he has before, then the Judge will allow e360 to grab the US volunteers they already know about, and depose them under the same prospective penalties.   •   Denail of reality won't get you anywhere...   •   Then it will get interesting.   •   The e360 v Spamhaus case is not a normal case, for not very often does the Defendant flee the Courtroom - so it was handled in a different way. ALL that the Court could decide, so far, since the default judgment,is the amount of the decision. After the decision is made the issue of "who pays" will come up.   •   Let me try once again. Maybe you should go and get Robert's guy down at the hardware store to help you with the legal details.   •   Well - I withdraw my compliment about Civics class. I guess you weren't really listening.   •   Your favorite person Tim Bolen wrote an interesting article about how this works: http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/polevoy%20petulance.htm   •   I imagine it will take years to process the judgments with the judgment claims following those "volunteers" through garnishments, property seizures, etc. It will nevr go away until e360 has been satisfied. That's the way the US justice system works.   •   Once "Collection Discovery" is achieved then each of the volunteers, starting with the US volunteers, will be summoned personally, likely with liens, seizures, etc.. They will each have to get their own attorney.   •   Spamhaus, through Jenner & Block, will undoubtedly try to argue that it is a company in England run only by Steve Linford - but that idea will not fly what-so-ever. The Court will order "Collection Discovery."   •   So, as we approach the point where the judgment amount will be decided, e360 will now address the issue, with the Court, as to who and what "Spamhaus" actually is for purposes of collection. As you must remember Spamhaus advertised on its website exactly what it's legal entity was when they stated "Spamhaus is made up of volunteers from all over the world." And, that description, for all practical purposes is an acceptable legal description of the REAL Spamhaus.   •   e360 sued the entity "Spamhaus" because that was the entity available to sue. In a normal case "discovery" would have provided the details of the case including the identities of the players that made up the entity describing itself as "Spamhaus." But, this was not a normal case for the spamhaus visible leadership at the time RAN from the courtroom causing a default judgment to happen - so there was no normal case progression as there would be in a normal trial.   •   Let me see if I can explain this at your reading level...   •   Wow! Not as bad comment for a fourteen year old! You must have actually been paying attention in Civics class. Good job!   •   Everything else will happen right out of Chicago - except for the separate filings (Motions and Orders) in various parts of the US used to facilitate the collection process from the US volunteers.   •   Once the "Collection Discovery" process starts the only reason that anyone would go to Britian would be to pick up Linford from the locals acting on an arrest warrant when he fails to follow the orders of the US court regarding Discovery.   •   The Spamhaus US volunteers are toast, waiting their turn in the toaster.   •   There is plenty of history for this kind of case, and collection activities, for Spamhaus is hardly the first group to try to hide behind a fake entity.   •   Now, all that is left is four things: (a) the judgment amount (and the Special Master is working on that right now, I'll bet), (b) the demand for payment (and there will be NO payment), (c) Collection Discovery - forcing the identification of the REAL Spamhaus players, and (d) a very bloody collection process.   •   But there is a big difference in the Spamhaus situation, for the originators, and power controllers of the REAL Spamhaus, took great effort to hide their identities behind a false situation, intentionally, to attempt to avoid lawsuits in the US. But, as you can see, e360's legal team saw right through that ruse - and went for the throat, so to speak.   •   Your assumption is correct. The Plaintiff, in the case you describe, took the best road to recovery, and achieved a good outcome. In short, they went for the deep pockets.   •   Your argument is well reasoned, and, unlike others messaging on this thread, it is not an "acting out" effort - an immature fear expression. Thank you.   •   You are correct, I think, about how hard it will be to collect a 180 million dollar judgment from the Spamhaus US volunteers. What e360 will focus on, I'd guess, is where that volunteer was sitting , in front of whose computer (an employer?) when the did the dirty deed damaging e360 - deep pockets.   •   Step up to reality. Spamhaus lost the case the first day with a very bad legal strategy. All that's left is the collection process.   •   I imagine that e360 has already contracted with collection experts and is planning the first wave of assaults, acting as swiftly as possible once the judgment amount is announced. My guess is that certain people are already targeted, and their bank accounts will be frozen the first day, liens on everything they own will happen almost instantly, and court orders to their employers ordering all income to be turned over to e360 will be in place. Since most of these people are in "Denial" they won't be prepared, and probably will not have their own attorney ready - and, of course, once their bank accounts are frozen, they won't even be able to hire an attorney. Once the seizures and liens are in place, each of the the "volunteers" will be given about twenty days to come up with the full amount of the judgment - and when they don't do that, then the people with the tattoos on their faces will come in to take everything in sight.   •   Spamhaus is now, and always has been, a construction. The Courts always look to see what an entity really is.   •   Hiding behind a fake name doesn't protect anyone.   •   e360 sued correctly when they simply named Spamhaus as the Defendant. They didn't need to name anyone else, for there were no separate entities to sue. Everyone they needed to reach was covered under the one name "Spamhaus."   •   What will really happen, after the judgment amount is announced, a demand for payment made, Linford either whines that there is no money, or runs off to Timbuktu, is that e360 will simply point out that Linford is not now, nor has ever been Spamhaus. Spamhaus will have to prove that he is - and they can't do that. No judge in the world is going to believe that an out-of-work musician living on a houseboat running an Apple IIE is the REAL Spamhaus - for, it simply isn't true.   •   I can see you have great hope for some sort of miracle to happen, but the US Courts don't work that way.   •   And the collection process will start.   •   All that's required now, or right after the judgment amount is entered, is that Spamhaus turn over that list of "volunteers from all over the world."   •   So why would they have to name anyone specifically? Spamhaus already officially, and legally, described who they really were.   •   Thank you Michael for explaining the issue so succinctly. You are absolutlely correct in part of your statement when you say "e360 screwed up by not suing anyone other than Spamhaus." But, they did NOT screw up - because Spamhaus PROUDLY described on their website, at the time of the e360 lawsuit, that "Spamhaus is made up of volunteers from all over the world."   •   Denial is not a good coping strategy. It won't help you prepare for what's coming If you were one of the "performers" than get ready. And warn your employer what's coming.   •   Your issues are showing.   •   Therest of your message was unintelligible.   •   I see you have your hopes up. Don't do that. Look in your Old Testament. You'll find many examples of the coming of the reckoning.   •   Lying in Federal Court can be a rewarding experience. You can get your meals paid for for quite a while at Club Fed. I look forward to your testifying. Do you need help getting a hold of Judge Korkoras?   •   Spam is worse now than ever. There is no evidence, whatsoever, that Spamhaus has had any effect on spam at all. Those prosecutions you quote were made by governmet agencies from violations of the Can-Spam Act - not from any anti-spam group.   •   I think most of you are beginning to realize how badly you were led into disaster, but claiming "I didn't know" at this point is not a defense that will work during the e360 collection process. If you were there, participating in any way, you are pretty much screwed. Why? Beause no Judge, in any Court on Earth is going to buy the idea that Spamhaus was run out of a houseboat in Britain by an out-of-work musician. The identity of the REAL Spamhaus will simply be wrung out during the " Collection Discovery" process. I can picture 3e360's legal team beginning argument: "Your honor, Spamhaus would have you believe that it has been run out of a houseboat in Britain by an out-of-work musician. The fact is, your honor, that Linford is simply the codpiece... and not a very large one we might add... The REAL Spamhaus is found in the performers, and those performers, your honor, can be found right here in the US." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codpiece   •   There is a good write-up on coping strategies available, and I'll give you the URL below. When you start reading the text, rwalize that the first part of the article descobes the IMMATURE stategies. In that section you will find descriptions of the coping stategies we normally find used on the discussion. It is the second part of the article which is helpful - forthere it amkes suggestions on how to deal with strss in a MATURE way. http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=9791&cn=353   •   What all of you, who are Spamhaus US volunteers, need, is a MATURE coping strategy - one , or more, that can work for you own personality (or, like in Gumby/Grendal/etc.s case - multiple personalities). What you are doing here on this group is simply not helpful to yourselves, or others.   •   Yes, this is worrisome, Michael, especially to those in the US (under the immediate jurisdiction of the US Courts) that can be traced to the Spamhaus volunteer system.   •   Now, of course, the Spamhaus US volunteers have a whole lot more to worry about, for all of the legal indicators point towards a massive judgment in favor of e360 with a long, and brutal collection process. My guess is that e360 will unleash the dogs, so to speak. And, frankly, they should do that.   •   Then Linford ran from the courtroom, falling back, so to speak, on the second assinine legal theory of just ignoring the US Courts - and you see how well that worked... A group of volunteers had to come forward and put up some very big money, hiring Jenner & Block to keep the collection process from starting immediately on the US Spamhaus contingency.   •   No Michael, you need to ge some REAL legal advice about what's happening and what's going to happen. You are listening to the very same people who, a few yeas ago, told you that "Spamhaus is in Britain, so if you sue us you have to come here and put up all the money for our defense, blah, blah, belch, belch..." Of course none of that was true.   •   I know this is all very worrisome - and it should be - but a little preparation is a good thing. As Berretta said "If you can't do the time don't do the crime."   •   Then, like I suspect has already happened, some of you might want to make a secret deal with e360 to provide information in exchange for a free pass.   •   But, frankly, it would be better to, instead of "acting out," make a plan to deal individually with what's coming. For instance the Spamhaus US volunteers might want to make initial contact with bankruptcy attorneys, and have papers ready to file to slow down the inevitable process. They might want to change employment so that when the original employer is contacted about THEIR involvement, or support, of the US volunteer's activity there is no immediate cessation of income through a termination. Those that own companies might want to seek a legal strategy to keep the entity afloat.   •   I can certainly understand why this group would be siffering from severe anxiety - for the Judge's decision in the e360 v Spamhaus case could come at any minute, and the waiting itself has to be a separate source of stress.   •   "Acting out is defined as the release of out-of-control aggressive or sexual impulses in order to gain relief from tension or anxiety. Such impulses often result in antisocial or delinquent behaviors. The term is also sometimes used in regard to a psychotherapeutic release of repressed feelings, as occurs in psychodrama." http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/acting-out-1   •   One thing, however, stands out - the ability to "act out." That skill has been honed to become, virtually, the only arrow left in the anti-spam quiver.   •   I can see why spammers are so successful. Their opposition, the self-styled anti-spammers, like the Spamhaus volunteer system, can't focus. Their attention span has to be measured in microseconds. And their comprehension of reality is non-existent.   •   Should I forward that text to Synergy, or do you think they are already aware of the circumstances of your factual statement?   •   Since you claim to be a "former insider" at Spamhaus, your statement above should be of interest in the current process being carried out by the assigned "Special Master." It is very good, and convincing, evidence that Linford, and the presence of Spamhaus, supposedly in Britain, cannot be taken seriously.   •   You carry your bitterness out front of you. You should move on. This battle, for you and yours, has been lost. Pay the price, accept your wondoing, learn from it, and get a jobe where you don't have to hide.   •   The whole concept of hiding behind a British corporation, supposedly run by a potty-mouthed part-time musician, was a bad one, and, as you have observed, was easily swept aside by the US Federal Court system. To have counted on that silly construction was devastating, of course, and now the price will be paid.   •   You are letting your sense of defeat effect your delivery. You must, calmly, accept the reality of the demise of Spamhaus and its players.. The US justice system, although imperfect in some areas, tends to work. In essence, good triumphs over evil. That certainly happened here.   •   You are late to this discussion. Please read back a few hundred pages and save us all the effort of explaining what "piercing the corporate veil" means.   •   I occurs to me that you have made the statement indicating that you are no longer active in anti-spam activities. Doesn't that make you a troll here?   •   Or, don't run - and we will all watch you be disassembled.   •   If you were one of those US volunteers involved in the malicious attack on e360, and others, it would be a good idea, at this point, to cash out quickly, and run. For, no amount of Asset protection, at this point, will protect you.   •   Get used to the idea that the REAL Spamhaus, not the frontispiece created in Britian, is going to pay the judgment in the e360 v Spamhaus case. With the assignment of a Special master, my guess is that the Court, under Judge Korkoras fine leadership, has comfortably engaged that process.   •   Spam, of itself, is a real internet problem. But here, it becomes obvious that mechanism to solve the issue is simply not available. Instead, we have virtual children, hiding behind a myriad of juvenile identities, assigning themselves a function they have no chance of solving. Animal Farm on the internet.   •   It does not surprise me that virtually nothing interesting, intelligent, nor pertinent to the subject at hand, was posted on this thread in my seven day absence. That situation, itself, sort of encapsulates the reality of the REAL Spamhaus, and, in fact, the whole anti-spam movement.   •   You are not allowed to use more than one identity.   •   The question, here, is "What will the Court appointed "Special Master" do with this material?   •   I have no doubt that Synergy would have gathered, gleefully, the commentary from NANAE about e360, the case, the Judge, etc., to use in Court, stating the obvious - "Your honor, we have gathered the Defendants published commentary from their offical communications network NANAE, and, as you can see the Defendant is totally engaged in "Malice," and an organized contempt for this Court..., blah, blah, blah."   •   I am also beginning to think that the "newcomer" here is you - every day, in every way.   •   (ho-hum)   •   I am beginning to think that "lint" surprises you.   •   (yawn)   •   As usual you can't stay on target. This is a "Civil" case - not a "Criminal" case, and it will stay that way until, for instance, Linford ignores the orders of the Court and Judge Korkoras issues a Contempt Order and releases an Arrest Warrant.   •   Sorry - but you've been caught. Come out of the drug closet.   •   You need to stick to woodworking. This is not an area where you can operate. You miss the basics. You are embarassing yourself.   •   You are beginning to drift off into the intellectual ether. It is time for you, once again, to go down and visit your legal expert at the hardware store. Pick up some Gorrilla Glue while you are there. Maybe that'll help you "stick" to reality.   •   Using an attorney that normally does a different specialty is akin to asking a Podiatrist to do heart surgery. Ahhhh, no.   •   No one can save Spamhaus. It's all over but the judgment amount and the collection process..   •   No US marshall would go to another country with a machine gun. If they were sent to apprehend someone in, say, Britain, they'd simply send the paperwork ahead to the foreign country and have the locals pick up that person and they'd chain them up for transport at the local police station and drag them on to the airplane.   •   Us Marshalls are not equipped with M-60 machine guns. They carry a standard Glock 40, with extra clips. For backup, and during assault situations, they can carry an AR15 or a twelve guage shotgun.   •   You are being overdramatic.   •   You have it wrong. if Synergy didn't have a deal, for a percentage of the judgment (contingency), they'd be long gone. They are here for a victory. They smell blood and money, and they are going to get what they want.   •   In response to: "Tell us where the money is, and who contributed how much:" My thinking is that that information will come during the "Collection Discovery" phase.   •   Try discussing the fact that the REAL Spamhaus is attempting to hide behind a facade, claiming they are based in Britain operated by a part- time musician off of an Apple IIe (or something almost the same), when, in reality, the company is made up of people based mostly in North America...   •   Can e360 cash in on the "Malice" in a default judgment? We'll see. Frankly, I hope they do.   •   My guess is that Jenner & Block balked at the obvious malice and demanded money, up front, from the REAL Spamhaus.   •   "Malice" is described in several ways - but the URL below does a very good job. As you can see a good many of the comments on NANAE fit this definition. e360 need only make the claim that these people are the REAL Spamhaus - for, of course, they are. Malice - http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-source.com/terms/malice.html   •   So, I think that Judge Korkoras is heading this case towards "justice," with the insertion of a "Special Master." I have no doubt that every message on NANAE screaming for the death of e360 is in, or will be in, the hands of that "Special Master."   •   "Malice" is a serious legal situation that brings down the wrath of the US Court system - always. So, what I think happened in the minds of the primary players (the Court, attorneys, etc.), early in the case, is that there was a paradigm shift due to the obvious "Malice" involved.   •   What things occurred? Well, probably the biggest issue was "Malice." Right here on NANAE it became obvious that there was a group out to ruin, totally destroy, e360 as fast, and as thoroughly, as they could.   •   I suspect that in the beginning Jenner & Block were recruited for their Pro Bono services under the guise that Spamhaus was involved in some sort of significant social action. But then several things occurred which likely disabused them of that notion. It is my guess, that, at that point they stopped Pro Bono work, and made it clear that there needed to be money on the table before they would continue.   •   Who knows.   •   It is possible, during the "Collection Discovery" process, that certain other evidence might come to light which could spawn a second, or even a third round, of related lawsuits - which in total could double or triple the current damage awards.   •   I don't see any situation where the case could go to a $1/4 billion. Almost, but not quite.   •   Are you male or female at the moment? Your message was neutral, and it makes a difference how I respond.   •   If you'd like to act as informant, I can tell you how to get ahold of Synergy privately - as, apparently, others have already done, as, it looks to me, they have some initial "judgment money" targets already picked out.   •   Pro Bono work is usually done by big firms who need a tax "write- off." But, they only do so much of it. Then too, there is not much of waht could be defined as "public interest" in this case. They might have thought there was in the beginning, but then reality set in. No doubt, after the first flury, they invited the REAL Spamhaus down for a meeting, telling them, in no uncertain terms, to "bring your checkbooks."   •   Yep, the US volunteers for Spamhaus are in for a hard ride. The day Linford turned his back on the US contingency, and RAN back to England, will go down in infamy. I don't see any way that those that came forward, putting up the money for a Defense attempt, will see any success. Are they are doing is stalling off the inevitable - and running up the costs they are going to pay.   •   Where'd I get the $179.6 million figure? Easy - see below what will probably happen with the insertion of a "Special Master" into the mix: Year one - $135 million plus 10% interest = $148.5 million Year two - $148.5 million plus 10% interest = $163.35 million Year three - $163.35 million plus 10% interest = $179.685 million Probably, plus sanctions, too.   •   My guess is that Synergy, once the judgment is in, will start subcontracting out the collection process.   •   "Collection Costs" are what happens when the demand is made for payment after the final judgment and the Defendant whines and whimpers "But, we don't have any money, and we're in England, blah, blah, blah (gush of tears from Linford), and the Plaintiff has to rip into the construction of the REAL Spamhaus to get the judgment money.   •   No doubt, Synergy is in for 40% of the Judgment Amount. That's the usual fee to take a case to trial. Think about how much 40% of $179.6 million US. = $71.84 million dollars US. Then, of course, they get to cash in on "Collection Costs."   •   Jenner & Block worked a few Pro Bono hours in the beginning - but there is no evidence that they are doing so now. Their website claim is specific about what they did.   •   Try, once again, to get the simple precepts into your brain.   •   Get back down to the hardware store and get some better legal interpretation. You are still missing the point.   •   Your analysis of "defamation" is just about as good as your analysis of the e360 v Spamhaus case - that of an unknowing, but deeply opinionated, dilletante.   •   There seems to be a problem with this google thread. It says, for instance tha there are 884 messages in this thread, but only 650, or so, show up. Where are the others?   •   Let's take a look at that "volunteer" list together David. Since Spamhaus proclaims to be the leader, let's see just exactly who we are dealing with. You're not personally afraid of that, now, are you? You seem, although overtly hostile, to be somewhat reasonable.   •   Well, David, now that I think about what I just said - I can see why all of you would be reluctant - a jury in California would DEFINITELY be interested in the PERSONAL charactistics of the "volunteers," and if they, or most of them, exhibited the Blasik, or HH, personas, then your argument would be up the creek without paddle.   •   The California legal system is highly respected worldwide - so why are you people so afraid of "getting your day in Court?" Is it because those "volunteers" will, in the light of day, show up to be ALL like Blasik or HH - and you are afraid that your message won't be well received??   •   Just give me names, and legal service addresses of the Spamhaus "volunteers" (all I don't already have), and we can begin the rational discussion of the issues in front of the system that "we the people" of the US designed JUST FOR THIS SORT OF DIFFERENCE OF OPINION.   •   I have to say that I respect your right to have a difference of opinion - a significant one. I'm simply offering all of you the opportunity to explain your thinking, and your legal position in front of a jury of twelve in a formal setting. Why do your people get upset over something (litigation) that is so much a part of American everyday life?   •   Who's Morris? Is this someone who has info I can use?   •   It's too bad nobody wants to be reasonable with me - for I'm a reasonable man.   •   In essence, every defendant I pick will have, roughly, twenty days, from the time they are serves, to hire a California lawyer and formally respond - for I'll have "Motions for Default" ready to go - with "Motions to seize property" ready to go on the morning of the twenty-first day. And, believe me, I'll have those defendants served within an hour of each other wherever they may be.   •   The legal action will be in California. I take my time setting up court cases. To me they are like war (in fact, they ARE war) and careful planing is very important. I'll be working from a "litigation book," meaning that the first year's worth of Motions, etc., will be ready to go on day one, and will fall on the Court Clerk's desk on exactly the moment I planned. I'll know, beforehand, exactly what tactics the opposition will employ in their scramble to meet deadlines (especially the first response deadlines) required.   •   It is somewhat amusing that your cute little "secret" discussion group, in its infinite paranoia, actually believes that you understand "law" as it has developed in the civilized world. Even more amusing is your group's frenzied reaction to my reasoned request for solution - it says volumes.   •   And the point is that "we the people" of the United States, as well as governments around the world, have taken time from our busy lives to define "spam" and to detail EXACTLY how we want this situation to come out. We DID NOT leave this issue up to a secret little group of angry mediocrity, who, in their frustration over trying to deal with a problem clearly beyond their ken, leaves the solution (insert laughter here) to a out-of-work musician living on a houseboat in a filthy backwater near London.   •   American citizens think, wrongly, that the internet is a place where they can somewhat freely express their opinions about social issues important to them. But they are dead wrong - for there is an internet company, based in London, England that continuously monitors internet traffic - and if that company, or any of its members, or its customers, don't like what an American is saying on the internet, they can, and will, shut down that person's access to the internet.   •   I'm getting a very clear picture of your group's feelings of frustration. I'm tempted to help you through this crisis. Has your group got any money to hire me?   •   Why would I want to try a lawsuit that is about US and California law in, basically, what is third world country (Britain) resentful for their dependence on American largesse?   •   Do you see a solution here, other than the conflagration of litigation?   •   The way I see it, I have no other choice but to rely on the Court system - for I believe in my message, and I know it must be delivered, because I get the appropriate social reaction. I have a little less than 12,000 media people on my subscriber list. When I break a story in my newsletter, these days, only a few months goes by before mainstream media starts to pick up my issue - and runs with their own pieces. This is important, for instance, if you consider what I'm saying. For instance, one of the most shocking articles I've done, recently, is the one about American Dentistry being the worst problem in health care in 2006. You can find that article on the front page of www.bolenreport.net. Go read it, and you'll think twice about getting a glass of water from your sink in the kitchen.   •   My issue is a simple one - I'm an advocate of free speech, and I see the internet as a means for social change - and intend to make full use of it. The US Court system is where I'm going with my arguments, because, as you can see from the other posts in this group - there is no reasonableness available.   •   Could you provide me with a list of who those "moneyed special interest" groups? That's exactly who I'm looking for - those who gain from this fake anti-spam process.   •   I appreciate your commentary about "private blacklists." Where would I find evidence of those, and my name on them? This is getting much better than I expected.   •   The one I REALLY want to find is the spamhaus "volunteer" calling himself/herself "HH." And find them, I will.   •   I just need the names of those so-called "volunteers" spamhaus uses, some of the companies they contract with, etc. to put on the "list of Defendants..."   •   Unlike the outright "sissies" on this list, who hide behind fake names, I , Tim Bolen, am standing right here ready, willing, and very able to do battle.   •   Let's get to the bottom line here. I, simply, feel this argument needs to see the light of day in a Courtroom - and I am more than willing to drag those that think they can subvert the will of the American people for their own gain, into a Courtroom to do it.   •   SPAM IS DEFINED BY BOTH CALIFORNIA, AND THE US, AS A "CRIMINAL ACT," AND THE DEFINTIONS OF WHAT CONSTITUTES THAT "CRIME" ARE VERY, VERY, VERY, SPECIFIC. BE VERY, VERY, CAREFUL WHO YOU CALL A CRIMINAL.   •   WELL, DAVID, NOW THAT'S THE PROBLEM NOW ISN'T IT? BOTH CALIFORNIA AND THE US HAVE CLEARLY DEFINED SPAM - BUT APPARENTLY, YOU, AND MOST OTHERS ON THIS LIST HAVE NEVER, ACTUALLY, READ THOSE LAWS, NOW HAVE YOU?   •   I will not demand that you testify in court of law if you help me. I'm just looking for verifiable info I can use. I'll take damaging "personal" information, too as that all goes towards character.   •   I cannot pay for information - but I will agree to confidentiality. The attorneys for Spamhaus, the individual "volunteers," their employers, those ISPs, etc., will be screaming demands for who my informants are. But, in California, by law, I have journalist's privilege, so I don't have to tell them. And, I won't.   •   I'm going to find out - and the anti-spam community is in for a big shock. It's called the legal system. I'm VERY good at this. Now, if you can help me identify the Defendants...   •   I appreciate your commentaries, but we've gone beyond "discussion." It's time that the anti-spam definition put forth by Linford, and his volunteers, meets its day in Court. California passed an anti-spam law several years ago, and the US Can-Spam act somewhat copied that. SPAM is legally defined in both California and the US - period.   •   Reality comes hard, doesn't it?   •   And now you live in someone's garage.   •   My guess too, is that you discovered, somehere along the line, that you got used by those you thought were your friends.   •   Now, of course, you have, for all practical purposes, been "on the run" for some time, haven't you?   •   Now that that very thing is happening I can see why you would not want what is happening pointed out to those that you, at one time, tried to impress with your power and prestige.   •   You involved yourself in a power grab on the internet - and while you were in it you were riding high. But, none of you thought of the consequences of your actions or did you consider that, one day, someone would come for you and your friends.   •   Sit back and enkoy the show.   •   No Federal Judge in the US is ever going to beleive that Spamhaus is run by a part-time musician using an Apple IIe.   •   Then the collection process begins, and the very first targets will be the US volunteers Then, since those people will likely NOT have enough cash to pay the judgment, Motions will be filed to discover the identities, and assets of every US volunteer within the court's immediate jurisdiction.   •   It really is just a simple process. The Judge, now on advice from a "Special Master," will announce a judgment amount. Then Steve Linford will whine "We don't have any money, and anyway, you have to argue the case in the UK - or he runs off to places unknown.   •   You right to be very afraid. Your whole perception of legal reality is about to be shaken.   •   e360's legal team, however, is revving up the collection process teams.   •   I would imagine the US volunteers paying Jenner & Block's legal bills, right about now, are calling their Asset Protection lawyers for a little hope that something, anything, can be saved.   •   Nope - you are wrong.   •   It is understandable that you do not wish people to know what you do.   •   The assignment of a "Special Master" pretty much signifies DOOM for the REAL Spamhaus.   •   Your legal analysis is drivel - but you know that. Stick to pushing drugs.   •   I do not advise you to hang around the courthouse trying to see if you can get close to the "Special Master," to see what form DOOM takes. These days they have cameras everywhere - just for people with high anxiety like you.   •   Your writing trembles with anxiety. You vibrate like a cornered rat. And, rightfully so.   •   Your fear has grown. And, rightfully so.   •   I think, by your admission of what, exactly, you are, professionally, we can come to an understanding of how you think, and where your morality is.   •   But try reading this, below. And, if you are a Spamhaus US volunteer, it is a good time to become acquainted with adult diapers. They should all be very, very afraid.   •   In regard to a Judge's early ruling about an amount. Be aware that a Judge can change his mind any time he wants. Maybe someone, recently, showed him some internet text where a represntative of the Defendant labled him as "looney." Who knows.   •   I know there are those of you who find all of this tremendously frightening - and, truly, if you analyze this activity, it is easy to reach the conclusion that the appointment of a "Special Master" does not bode well for Spamhaus, the Spamhaus US volunteers, and the anti- spam community.   •   What your legal expert will tell you is simple - that they are there for high profile cases, and they serve for a specific purpose. In other words, Judge Korkoras is anticipating a landmark ruling, which, in my guess, will probably end, for all time, the anti-spam community, seeing its members hunted through the alleyways, attempting to avoid the collection agents.   •   "Special maters" are brought in to make recommendations on SIGNIFICANT issues - like the amount of damages, for instance. My guess is that we'll be looking at something in the range ABOVE $135 million. My guess, is that there will be something like: Year one - $135 million plus 10% interest = $148.5 million Year two - $148.5 million plus 10% interest = $163.35 million Year three - $163.35 million plus 10% interest = $179.685 million Probably, plus sanctions, too.   •   It is is going to be ugly. or, it is going to be pretty - depending on your point of view.   •   I realize you are stuck in a bad place, getting your hopes up that somehow, someone, some miracle will happen to save Spamhaus and the US volunteers - but it is not going to happen.   •   I think you will find the following URL interesting. After reading it you might want to contact Tim Bolen and make him an offer.   •   My guess about you is that you are one of those MD failures that cannot deal with patients so you sit in an office somewhere waiting for some fool to show up hoping for a miracle to cure their mesothelioma - and you, wearing a white coat with a stethascope hanging around your neck, try to convince them to join a study about some chemotherapy offshoot that melts their kidneys and liver, but leaves their eyelashes in place for a while. Am I right? No wonder you have time to be here.   •   The reason I have not answered your question is simple; you don't ask the right question, which shows how little you know about the US legal system.   •   You are correct to bring up the "collection discovery" point once again - for it is very important. That process will begin once the Special Master issues their report to Judge Korkoras and the judge assigns a judgment amount, and Linford responds with (a) We don't have any money (whimper, sniff, whimper), or (2) there is no response at all - because Linford ran away once again.   •   You live in La La Land...   •   Why doesn't one of the US volunters just step up and write Lindhardt a check, and end all this?   •   What is more likely is that the "special Master" just might decide to add on 10 % interest per year to the $135 million damage number. What would that add up to?   •   You really should go down to Robert's hardware store nuts and bolts department and sit at the feet of Robert's legal expert for a while. You are so far off base, you're sitting in the bleachers.   •   Creating new identities attempting to reinforce your silly ideas does not actually help your arguments. They remain silly. HTH   •   Popcorn, potato chips, red vines... Get a comfortable chair and watch what happens.   •   Yes, you are right. Spamhaus, at this point, is groveling in any forum it can find, hoping desperately for a miracle, or at least for any delay that holds off the inevitable "collection discovery" identifying the real Spamhaus, and the consequences of that find.   •   Keep your facts straight please.   •   No matter how you try to spin it the reality of the situation is that every legal action now, on the part of Spamhaus, is for the express purpose of minimizing the collection process gang-rape that is imminent - since by RUNNING away they already lost the case.   •   Apparently, a group of US volunteers, terrified over what was going to happen to them, antied up approximately 1.2 million US dollars to continue the case, attempting to keep the "collection" wolves from their doors.   •   Your assertion that "the last thing he wants is for the case to be re- opened with Spamhaus able to defend itself" is silly. After all, Spamhaus DID HAVE the opportunity to defend itself and chose to RUN AWAY from the case.   •   Interesting commentary. Sort of twisted though, don't you think?   •   I'm going to send this tidbit to Tim Bolen. I'll bet he finds this interesting. I wonder waht he will do with thi info.   •   So, what is your interest in this NANAE group?   •   Sorry - that just doesn't ring true.   •   Come on Judge - let's get to the fun stuff.   •   Then, of course, we can watch e360 begin to disasemble the US Spamhaus contingent making demands for money from individuals and their employers.   •   Perhaps, if we are fortunate, Judge Korkoras will issue his Amount Decision this month, and the discussion about it will be over. Then we can talk about what will be happening next - which will probably be the sudden disappearance of Steve Linford, after the Demand for Payment was made, and then the withdrawal from the case of Jenner & Block, because of their client's obvious fleeing from the scene.   •   You are not offering anything of value in this discussion.   •   In short - for legal stuff yous imply don't measure up.   •   No wonder you hide your identity. You are, justifiably, ashamed of your writings.   •   You seem to have run out of argument, adult or otherwise.   •   I see you've run out of interesting comments, eh? "Eh" is a Canadian word. Look it up.   •   There's this thing called Pacer. Ask Robert's guy down at the hardware store. On Pacer all will be revealed. You will have to pay eight cents a page though.   •   Try the hardware store guy first. He's only a little above your current level.   •   In response to your "I happen to live within walking distance of J&B, Synergy and probably over 10,000 lawyers within the Chicago loop offices. Why in the world would I not want to talk with them first? :-P" - perhaps because they won't talk to YOU?   •   While you're there, see if you can help Organic's family trying to get her loose from the lumber display she stapled herself to.   •   I beg you. I beg you, I beg you. Go with Robert to the nuts and bolts department of the hardware store and get some legal advice.   •   You are running your identies together, Sybil   •   You are showing your ire... Reality comes hard doesn't it?   •   You don't really contribute much, do you?   •   And, its true. Get ready. For the Judge's decision could come any minute.   •   Now that statement "I think its just as important we don't start living in denial and create our own false version of reality" is the most important thing you've said.   •   We are not talking about condos. We are talking about the e360 v Spamhaus case.   •   Go to the meeting Robert is setting up. Don't stand next to Organic. She may park her gum on you.   •   I'm trying to figure this out. Who, exactly would use a name like WindsorFox? I mean, it is easy to figure out "Organic Gloomrider." Clearly that's a teenage girl with most of the usual issues. And the " Gumby/Grendal/ My Conscience/Nobody" conglomeration certainly makes sense, once you've read about multiple personalities fighting for space. But "WindsorFox?" That defies explanation. Are you saying that you are a hot girl living directly across the Detroit River in Windsor? If that's the case wy aren't you working at Hooters instead of hanging out here?   •   Huh?   •   You need to check this thread oftener. You are way behind in your responses. That makes it difficult for many of the people on here - especially those that have a short attention span - which is quite a few.   •   Stick to one identity here please. And, try to stay on the same page as the rest of us.   •   This is getting tiresome. Take your medication Sybil. You have been warned before.   •   If your big brother asks you to go down to the hardware store with him to hear Robert's legal expert explain things to them, stand quietly in the back and listen. No gum popping. No foot stomping. No excessive twitching. do not eat any sugar for one hour before. And, wash your hair before you go.   •   I think you, also, need to take the time and get with Robert and go down and talk to his legal expert at the hardware store. And, take your little sister "Organic" with you - but don't leave her alone in the hardware department where they demonstrate the rivet guns - lest she put more "piercings" on her face.   •   Get with Robert, will you? And, go down to the hardware store with him and listen to his legal expert in the nuts and bolts department.   •   OK - here you are... Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Feel better? Now, get ready for summer school.   •   Have a nice day. And, I hope this helps.   •   In short, if you are now, or ever were a Spamhaus volunteer, either in the US, or anywhere, grease up, bend over, and prepare for pain.   •   Keep watching. And you are right to be worried. When the Amount Decision is reached, there, certainly, and literally, hundreds of US attorney collection companies out there willing to take the case on percentage - plus collectible expenses (which will be awarded by the Court).   •   No one cares about the UK courts. In fact the days that the UK was world player are a story for the far-in-the-past history books. These days, Ireland has a bigger world presence - especially in the EU. I heard that, in fact, the UK will probably be a Muslim country by 2012. Just think - Muslim law in the UK.   •   It looks to me that Spamhaus is now, and always was, a ruse.   •   You are like a stuck record, replaying the same line repeatedly. You need to get the idea that this is a US case - there is no relationship to the UK what-so-ever. That was a dream made up long ago - and easily brushed aside by e360.   •   You certainly have your hopes up. But your arguments reek of no confidence - and, in that, you are correct. I see, from your description of your experiences, that you have, virtually no experience with the law - except that once you had some legal documents in your hand. Big deal.   •   Why is this so hard for you to think about? Surely you knew this was coming?   •   So, let's, just for fun, say that Judge Korkoras makes his decision on a Wednesday - say, July 29th for example. When do you think that e360's legal team would make their Demand? Would it be the same day? The next day? Or, perhaps, they'd wait until the following Monday?   •   Just for fun - let's go there once again. Try to overcome your tremendous, but justified, fears, and try to envision what is about to happen. Preperation is everything - don't you think?   •   I can't help but notice this group's immense discomfort over the reality of the upcoming Amount Decision by Judge Korkoras - and the effect that's going to have on the Spamhaus scam - especially on the US participants. You can't even begin to face what's about to happen to some of you.   •   Ho-hum. No wonder you can't fix the spam problem on the internet.   •   You are restricted to one identity in this thread.   •   So, let's, just for fun, say that Judge Korkoras makes his decision on a Wednesday - say, July 29th for example. When do you think that e360's legal team would make their Demand? Would it be the same day? The next day? Or, perhaps, they'd wait until the following Monday? Then, what do you think will be the formal Spamhaus response? Do you think that Steve Linford will permanantly disappear?   •   You are going to tell them to "to go fsck themselves?" Is that a Chicago thing?   •   Seriously - that's the best insult you could come up with? Yes, you are beginning to show the wear. Look over your shoulder. See that darkness in the corner? Does it seem bigger than it was few moments ago? It is.   •   Hah, ha, hah, ah, aha, hah, hah, ha , hah, hah, ahh, hah, hah, ha, hah, ah, aha, hah, hah, ha , hah, hah, ahh, hah, hah, ha, hah, ah, aha, hah, hah, ha , hah, hah, ahh, hah, hah, ha, hah, ah, aha, hah, hah, ha , hah, hah, ahh, hah, hah, ha, hah, ah, aha, hah, hah, ha , hah, hah, ahh, hah, hah, ha, hah, ah, aha, hah, hah, ha , hah, hah, ahh, hah, hah, ha, hah, ah, aha, hah, hah, ha , hah, hah, ahh, hah, hah, ha, hah, ah, aha, hah, hah, ha , hah, hah, ahh, hah, hah Thanks. I needed a good laugh.   •   A bankruptcy claim would have no affect on a Federal Court award, except, perhaps, to convince Judge Korkoras to go for the maximum award amount, since it became obvious, perhaps, that the Spamhaus intention carried "malice?"   •   "Perjury," however, carries jail time, in addition to civil penalties.   •   I predict that each, and every, known Spamhaus US volunteer, during teh process of collection discovery, will be brought before the Judge to answer questions under penalty of Perjury. Synergy set this up, quite handily, early in the case, and, no doubt, are hoping for one, or more, of the US volunteers to try and lie there way out of their finacial responsibilities.   •   Once gain, just to see if anything regarding common sense can get through your barriers, let's review how a case like this will proceed: (1) An Amount Decision will be announced ($11.8 million, $40 million, $80 million, $135 million?), (2) a Demand for Payment will be made to Spamhaus, (3) an Answer to the Demand will be filed (or NO answer), (4) e360 will proceed to pierce the corporate veil and go after the REAL Spamhaus in the US. (5) the weeping will begin.   •   I am constantly made aware that there are people who have little, or no, concept of how a system of laws works - and can make up, at will, a virtual reality of the US law system. You are one of them. Maybe you could make this into a video game, with action figures?   •   Nope. The case is in the US. The majority money will be paid by the Spamhaus US contingent.   •   Apparently you are not much into the reality of the thing. On the surface of it all, Britain wants to appear to be totally independent of the US. But the reality is somewhat different. When the US farts, all of Britain sucks it in. Every time a US position statement is made, Britain, taking a moment to get its collective nose ouf the US ass, gasps "me too, me too, me too."   •   My guess is that, right about now, Dave Linhardt is probably looking for a small town, or an island, to buy with the proceeds from his Amount Decision ($80 million?, to be collected form the Spamhaus US contingency..   •   You are rambling.   •   I'd bet that your forced testimony, in front of Judge Korkoras during the "collection discovery" process, would be enlightening, wouldn't it?   •   Now, all that is left is Amount Decison, and the bloody collection process from the Spamhaus US apparatus. Get used to the idea.   •   Your analysis of the situation is pure wishful thinking. This is a US case. The British government will simply comply with any US court decision. No one cares a bit about what Steve Linford has to say. He already lost his opportunity to defend his position in the US courts.   •   Maybe that would be the time for Steve to tell the Judge how looney he thinks he is?   •   After the British government goes and grabs Steve, chains him into a doggie cage for the flight to Chicago, and Steve gets a change of clothing from the Cook County Jail system, he'll be hauled in front of Judge Korkoras to answer to "collection discovery" questions. There, is where we see how Steve's "Social Skills" will impress the Judge - or not.   •   Omce the Demand is issued there has to be an official response within twenty days. I'm guessing the response will be either (1) "we don't have any money," or (2) no reponse - leaving Jenner & Block the opportunity to get out of the case quickly. Either way, what will happen next will set the tone for Spamhaus and all of its support network, for e360 will simply set the "collection discovery" process in place. The Judge will issue an order for Spamhaus to comply - and if they don't comply immediately, e360 will, no doubt, file a Motion for Contempt, asking the Judge to issue an Arrest Warrant for Steve Linford. And, the Judge will do exactly that.   •   I think we may soon see how well Steve's social skills fly with Judge Korkoras - right after the Judge issues his Amount Decision ($40 million?), and e360 presents their Demand.   •   Stick to woodworking,   •   You seem to have made up, here, an entirely imaginary US Court System, based on nothing. You show absolutely no references, nor, could you or this dissertation.   •   Although you seem to have written your message in what appears to be a knowledgable manner, as though, for instance, you had some law training, your understanding of "the law" is missing.   •   My guess is that e360 accepted the simple fact, all along, that Steve Linford is not really a player at Spamhaus, and never was. He is now, and always was, just a front man. The real juice is in the US - and I suspect that e360 knows exactly who the target really is - and is legally inching their way toward the US pile of assets - in exactly the same way that Steve Richter crushed them a fewyears ago - except e360 wants Spamhaus's total demise - and they are going to get it.   •   Keep watching. It is going to get interesting. I predict that once the Amount Decision is reached that Steve Linford will disappear into the landscape.   •   Try reality. The Spamhaus US volunteers, frankly, are just waiting for the other shoe to drop.   •   I see you've given up trying to find some legal basis for your hopefulness. Good.   •   Once the Amount Decision is reached, then a Demand will; be made for the money. That's when the show will get interesting.   •   You really have your hopes up for some kind of amazing solution, here, don't you? But, of course, you are completely wrong. The Spamhaus legal construction "we're in Britain, bla-blah-blah...) has already been crushed, and the case is ON in the US, not Britain. Get used to the idea. The creators of the Spamhaus construction were legally STUPID - and they will now pay for that stupidity.   •   Next year you'll be able to take a Civics course, and you'll get a basic explanaation of how the US system works. Until then. little girl, you need to leave the legal stuff to the big kids.   •   It is a very good idea, when quoting legal documents, loke the above, to ACTUALLY READ THE WORDS before you make a statement about same.   •   That's where the shredding will begin. My guess is that the Spamhaus US volunteers will go down first, because they are readily available for a legal plucking.   •   You're getting closer to legal reality - but you are not quite there yet. What's really going to happen is that Judge Korkoras will make an Amount Decision. Then a Demand for Payment will be made. Spamhaus will legally respond (or not). Since Spamhaus has already indicated that it is financially insolvent, this fact will change the legal dynamics instantly, and e360 will take action to pierce the corporate veil. That's when the story will get interesting. For then comes Collection Discovery - and the first question series will, no doubt, be about "who, exactly, is the REAL Spamhaus.   •   Panties in a bind?   •   Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Collection Discovery. Feel better?   •   Wrong - but we are getting used to that from you.   •   That's all you can come up with?   •   This is off-topic. Please start a different thread for this. This thread is about Spamhaus and their unsolvable problems.   •   Yawn.   •   Boring commentary.   •   You've lost the track. Start over.   •   Interesting comment. However, US Judges are appointed for life by the current President of the US. They are held in high regard evertwhere. Like it or not, they have the power to send a legal demand to virtually every country on Planet Earth - and that demand will be honored by the receiving gevernment instantly.   •   We'll probably find the answer to that question soon - in fact, several weeks after Judge Korkoras makes his amount decision, and the rest ofthe process begins.   •   But, the Spamhaus US volunteers, especially those that delighted in the attack on e360, I suspect, will be mercilessly pursued.   •   e360 has no need to go anywhere but the US Court. That Court will provide for all their collection and/or contempt needs.   •   My guess is that e360 would RELISH a "non-response" from Linford, he having fled from Britain and all. What e360 would no doubt do is file a Motion for Contempt requesting an Order of Contempt. This would give e360 even more latitude in the collection process. I imagine they could virtually shut down each and every blocklist with that contempt process. With an Order of Contempt an Arrest Warrant could be issued.   •   Yup. Evidence, as it were, that can be used to pierce the corporate veil.   •   If, of course, you were NOT involved in the anti-e360 process, and your name does not come up during "collection discovery," then, I suspect, you have nothing ro worry about. You can the, like the rest of us, sit here and watch the blood flow, so to speak.   •   There is no fantasy here. This is real life.   •   If you were to, for example, contact a lawfirm in the judgement collection industry, you could get a glimse, from them, of how they proceed. You would quickly get used to people with tattoos on their face at your place of business, on your front lawn, and in your driveway - all focusing on YOU - and, ofcourse who employed you to do this to e360, at the time.   •   The thing you, personally, need to consider, is whether or not, YOU, personally, were involved in the damaging of e360 as part of the Spamhaus Project. If you were, then you can expect to be aggressively approached by e360's collection process, after the decision amount has been set.   •   You should talk to someone who can help you. You need a real life.   •   You are actually vibrating, aren't you? Is your mouth foaming while you sit there?   •   And, the Spamhaus US volunteers are really "f**cked." Why? Because they are now, and willbe, readily available to e360's collection apparatus.   •   What will happen I predict, is that once Spamhaus whines their "we have no money " response, then e360 will simply demand collection discovery (which they are entitled to), the Court will grant that, of course, and e360 will suddenly "find" the real construction of Spamhaus. At that point, I predict, those claims will be made.   •   Oh, and by the way, once each of the US volunteers are identified through "Collection Discovery," they will have to hire their own counsel to handle their legal needs.   •   It occurs to me that, perhaps, knowing how little real legal knowledge is displayed on this discussion, that I should eleaborate - and not assume that NANAE participants will find pertinent information on the subject on their own.   •   I am curious about your claims here, and the situation you describe spawns the obvious question: "Are you the Ethics Coordinator for Spamhaus?   •   Now is as good a time as any to get used to the idea that the designers of the Spamhaus legal concept "f**cked" the US volunteers - and e360 simply made use of their legal stupidity. Now the Spamhaus US "alter ego" will be writing the checks.   •   The shredding is coming. Comes the pale horse.   •   There is no fantasy here, except, perhaps, in the hopeful minds of the NANAE consensus. The Spamhaus legal construction concept "we are in Britain, you have to come here and sue is (tee hee, tee hee, tee hee) was childish. No one, including yourself, actually believes that - the US Court certainly does not - and THAT is what matters.   •   What is going to happen next is going to be extremely brutal. The Judge will issue an Amount Decision, Spamhaus will run off somewhere whimpering "we don't have any money," e360 will begin the process of collecting from the US volunteers (the Spamhaus "alter-ego").   •   Actually, the Can-Spam Act is VERY specific. It is a good idea to read all of it - not just the paragraphs you think apply to the nonsense NANAE legal position.   •   I can see you have your hopes up about the outcome - but you're wrong. And, you are going to be very disappointed.   •   Boring. Try to do better.   •   "Collection Discovery," I suspect, is going to be a big shock to you.   •   You should actually read the court documents.   •   Reality is reality. Now comes the reaper. e360 has a judgment. Spamhaus lost the WHOLE argument when they ran from the courtroom. Get prepared for the sound of shreiking.   •   You will have to get used to the idea, sooner or later, that the Spamhaus legal construction was defective right from the start, and was easily pierced, within seconds, as it were, by e360. e360 wiped up the floor with the NANAE consensus.   •   I know the information I am putting out there about how the US Court system actually works is dirtectly opposite to what became the NANAE (and Spamhaus) general consensus, but you should try to stay calm over this discussion.   •   Perhaps you should have a meeting of your identities and work out a better comm plan. You all sound emotional rather than logical.   •   And here we are - waiting for an amount decision, and the roll-up of those individuals.   •   But e360 figured out the ruse of Spamhaus, and simply sued in the US, where the frustrated originators of all of the other loser antispam groups resided, suspecting correctly, I believe, that Spamhaus was just their newest anti-spam scam.   •   Since virtually every anti-spam predecessor was sued out of existence - as they should have been, the newest manifestation (Spamhaus) decided to go underground, as it were.   •   Spamhaus, it has been obvious all along, was just another manisfestation of a group interested in forcing its will over internet email policies on an internet public after the US Congress passed the Can-Spam Act defining what spam was legally - and that legal definition didn't meet their expectations.   •   Get a comfortable chair. Don't get to close to the weeping and gnashing of teeth.   •   Once again: (1) Judge Korkoras will issue a decison amount (11.8 million , 40 million, 80 million, 135 million?), a Demand for payment will be made, (3) Spamhaus will respond with "we don't have any money...", (4) collection discovery begins, (5) collection from the real owners and operators of Spamhaus happens - with emphasis o nthose within direct reach of the US court system (the US volunteers).   •   You just have to wait a little longer. The sequence of events will be simple and all will be revealed.   •   I guess this Tim Bolen person really frightens you.   •   I see you failed to answer the question once again.   •   Of course Spamhaus is based in the US. It always has been. Once Judge Korkoras signs the Judgment Amount documents the "show and tell" part of the process will begin, in earnest, in the US.   •   You should actually READ the case documents in the e360 v Spamhaus case. Your description of what actually happened does not match reality. Not even close.   •   Sorry, but your use of multi-identitiies to attempt to reinforce your arguments isn't really acceptable in society. You have to live with the fact that, in the US, we have a one person one vote rule. Just because you change identities does not reinforce your views - it makes you pitiable. Changing from a soft character (Gumby) to a hard character (Grendal) shows dysfunction not character. It is a sign of weakness.   •   Please just use the one identity.   •   Silliness is inappropriate here. We are talking here about something very serious.   •   Don't let fear get in your way. Make your statement.   •   here's the question once again - "OK, we've reviewed your "electronic" argument about why you think I am "Tim Bolen," or "Timmy Bolen" but you haven't really dealt with the "why" part of this equation. So, once again, why, exactly would "Tim Bolen" be interested in this subject? "   •   You didn't actually answer the question about the "why" of it all. You're not afraid of this guy, Tim Bolen, are you? So let's here your explanation of "why" little girl...   •   It's that simple. That'swhere the damage money is going to come from.   •   Spamhaus is simply a legal construction, amateurously designed to hide its US ownership/management. Once the decision on the amount of damages is made, the answer (we don't have any money) is made, the "collection discovery" will begin, and the real owners of Spamhaus will emerge (whining, kicking, and screaming?).   •   There is no Judge in the world, Korokoras included, who is going to beleieve that Spamhaus is owned, run, and operated off an Apple IIE, by Steve Linford in London (or was that Geneva now?).   •   It is becoming clear to me, now, how it is that Spamhaus got itself into such a legal nightmare, with, virtually, no way out. It, surely, must have put its legal construction theory together right here on NANAE.   •   Quit railing in anger. It is just, simply, going to happen right here in front of us.   •   In reality, there is nothing more here than waiting for Judge Korkoras to make his money amount decision. Whether that amount is 11.8 million, forty million, eighty million, or one hundred thirty five million there will be, I predict, no payment from Spamhaus itself, and e360 will have to go to the next step to collect the money - the US volunteers.   •   You've thrown in every possible nonsense side issue you can think of - why is that?   •   Not very good detective work.   •   Perhaps there may be intelligent dialogue once again.   •   It would be easier for us all if you'd try to use just the one identity.   •   It's hard to stay awake when you repeat your theme. Don't you have anything new?   •   This is just a discussion. You don't need to get so upset.   •   That was all rant, and no substance.   •   Wow! You've lost control of yourself completely.   •   Stop being so angry. This is just life at the courthouse. Get used to the idea that Spamhaus, whatever it may actually be, is going to be gushing blood.   •   The money amount decision ($80 million?), as well as ALL OF THE ISSUES are in the hands of Judge Korkoras - not the accumulated consensus of NANAE. Try and get used to that idea. The world you decribe is as much a fantasy as your mythology identities.   •   I'm sure that e360 will press this issue in "collection discovery."   •   Your comments, here, are disappointing. You could, as we all know, provide EXACT information about the Jenner & Block payment situation - and, for whatever personal reasons you have, you're not doing that. Instead you engage in obfuscation.   •   I'm not certain about how the Federal system in Illinois works, but I'd guess that there is in place there an investigative team of Federal Law Enforcement types that look into attacks on Federal Judges.   •   The Judge would say to Jenner & Block, in Chambers, "Don't f**k with me... provide the documents tomorrow morning, or else," and Jenner & Block would be screaming at their client on the phone right after, demanding that they provide the documents. Jenner & Block have to live and operate in that Illinois courthouse. The word "Sanctions" wouldn't even leave the Judge's lips. Yet.   •   The UK Court will merely act as a conduit for whatever the US Court decides. The UK Court has a rubber stamp just for these sort of occasions. If, for instance, a dermand is made for discovery of Spamhaus records and there is a negative answer, or a claim that "there are no records," then when the US court issues a "Contempt Citation," and orders Linford's arrest and return to the US for a little jail time, the UK Court's reaction will be the "thunk" sound of the rubber stamp, and the swishing sound of the Arrest Orders being handed to the "bobbies" standing there next to the US Marshalls dispatched by Judge Korkoras.   •   The first defensive strategy crumpled faster then France's invincible Maginot Line at the beginning of WWII. And, the second tactic will crumble right after the Judge decides the amount ($80 million?), and Spamhaus answers the Demand (or doesn't answer it), and the "collection discovery" phase begins.   •   I know this is an emotional issue for you, but you need to stay on track.   •   I'd bet Judge Korkoraswould issue an Arrest Order almost immediately for Steve Linford, the Marshalls would go get him, and the Judge would keep Linford in the can until he produced.   •   You have to comprehend the process. If you think YOU will be a target during collection, then, perhaps, you should address the problem now, rather than wait until they ae too busy to make you a deal?   •   But, just for laughs, could you give us an explanation of why you beleive that someone would be conducting a "sub-80-I.Q. PSYOPS campaign?" I mean, you do realize how far-fetched your story is, right? This guy you are accusing is, like, famous. You realize that? What reason would he have to do this?   •   Waht happens next is only three things: (1) an amount of damages will be set, (2) a Demand for payment will be made, and, (3) the collection process will begin in earnest.   •   Don't act silly or say silly things. This is serious business. There was no trial determining that e360 was a spammer, or anything at all.   •   What is even more worrisome is that e360's attorney, after they suck the US volunteers financially dry, they might turn over the information found to all of Spamhaus's other victims - or just go public with their findings. And that, I think, is why there is a group picking up Jenner & Block's monthly legal tab.   •   What will happen is "collection discovery." During that process e360 will be able to trace EXACTLY who caused them WHAT damage on WHAT DAY. All of Spamhaus's records will be in e360's attorneys' hands - and they will have a field day.   •   If they think you were involved, after the judgment amount ($80 million?) is set, we will all watch you disintegrate in front of us.   •   Getting emotional about the issue, and ranting, in anger, in writing does not change the facts, nor the upcoming process.   •   Law firms throw Pro Bono hours away here and there - not $1.5 million to legal idiots.   •   So, if you were not personally involved in that damaging activity, then I wouldn't worry too much   •   My guess is that the "real" owners of Spamhaus are coughing up the legal fees.   •   My guess is that e360's damage recovery process will focus on those that actually were involved in damaging them - although they may extend their reach if those that were guilty of that damage do not have the assets to surrender to satisfy the total judgment, plus the collection costs.   •   Stock up on snacks for the show. It won't be rated PG.   •   The Spamhaus US volunteers will be, I predict, be made VERY aware of how this actually works. Their personal experiences from this, I believe, after a while, could almost be made into a TV reality show.   •   Each of those, of course, will have to get their own legal counsel, at that point. The Court would not allow, under the circumstances, Jenner & Block to represent any of the individuals, eve nof they offered to pay them - Conflict of Interest.   •   That's right - the ENTIRE amount of the judgment. If the Judge says "$40 million" then they will make a Demand that YOU pay that amount. Each of the people that they indicate, from collection discovery, is a Spamhaus operative will get a similar Demand.   •   What happened during the processing of the case is TOTALLY different than what will happen AFTER the damage amount is indicated. I suspect that if e360 thinks that YOU are a player, and were a player at the time, damaging them, then after the judgment YOU can count on the fact that a collection law firm will contact you with a DEMAND for the entire amount of the judgment.   •   Nope - life doesn't work that way. neither does the US Court System   •   You are "close" to what actually happens - but you're not quite there. If the collection attorneys find you were involved, they'll come for you - period.   •   If you think you may be affected I suggest you contact an attorney to represent you personally right away. Have that attorney contact e360's lawyers and see if you can work something out before the deluge hits and they are too busy in the collection phase to deal with you.   •   The US Court system, based as it is on the English Common Law, is a system of fairness that works. My guess is that if, during "collection discovery" it becomes obvious that YOU, personally, were a factor in damaging e360 then the Court would find you culpable and would establish the amount of your liability, and that of whoever you were acting for at the time (ie; your employer, or your customers). There's no free lunch.   •   Are you the fourteen year-old girl that went into Ronnie Scelson's business?   •   My guess is that the leadership in the "anti-spam" industry is taking steps to position itself for when that happens. As in "It wasn't me, it wasn't me, it wasn't me, it wasn't me..."   •   What's finally dawning on your collective is that there is no escape for those that perpetrated the damages against e360. Once the judgment amount is revealed the "Demand" will be made for payment. And, when there is no payment, and there won't be one, I predict, then the next steps will be taken. That will entail "collection discovery" a process designed to find out, exactly, who Spamhaus actually is - who makes it up. There will be a court fight over that, I predict, for those that are currently paying Jenner & Block's legal bills having been dreading that "collection discovery" right from the start.   •   Wow! Finally you're getting it! You are actually coming towards reality. You're not quite there yet, but keep it up. You're getting close.   •   Think "collection discovery," kiddies.   •   I have to say I am very disappointed. I go away for a couple of days on a project, and come back to find nothing but inconsequential crap - no intelligent discussion of the issues what-so-ever.   •   If they claim they don't have any money, I can tell you where the blood banks are in their neighborhood. The blood banks are giving $75 for a pint of blood. Ask the Judge for two pints a week from each of them. There are places, out of the US, that buy extra body parts too - like kidneys, etc.   •   Don't you have a collection attorney firm to go after them? I can recommend a VERY agressive firm - one I'm going to recommend to e360.   •   You are kind of boring. Is this drivel all you have to contribute? You sound like an eleven-year old.   •   Apparently you have not been paying attention. Judge Korkoras will be deciding the exact amount of the damages soon. And, the amounts on the table range from $11.8 million to $135 million US.   •   You will be contacted soon to add your affidavit to the hundreds we have collected. In the meantime, know that you are not powerless or alone.   •   You are far from the only innocent party to be abused by these "white sheets with eye holes" crusaders. I have been amassing a list of victims, and when the time is right, we will strike. Our enemies will never know what hit them, here or in Germany.   •   So, are you getting tired of Jenner & Block calling every Monday and requesting another check?   •   Now we are getting to the meat. I don't have to ask "where's the beef?" I think I found it.   •   I'm beginning to think that I have discovered the entire Spamhaus Board of Directors and they (you) are all wearing the same underwear.   •   Huh? Can you explain? You are not making sense.   •   Ian, you need to rely on what is actually written down by the Court - not what you, or your other personalities, have made up in your own mind(s). Nowhere are there any reliable documents available that back up your claim, or anything even close to it - they are all fantasy - made up, perhaps, by you, or your other personnae, for publication on this group.   •   I was hoping you would review your presentation and, perhaps, contribute something thoughtful to the discussion. Instead, well, I'm seeing tripe. I'm disappointed.   •   Are you speaking of the Pentium M240? I haven't seen one yet, but I've heard it has overheating problems.   •   You really should be doing something more productive.   •   Why can't you just use the one identity? I've never understood when one individual person comes on the same discussion using several different identities. That's kind of dysfunctional, isn't it? Or do you, personally, carry the weight of different personalities? Like Sybll?   •   You are drifting off into some strange world, it seems.   •   I'm no stranger to war.   •   Of course, I began to investigate. And, of course, I began to look around, and make alliances with, other victims of this conspiracy.   •   Activist groups across America - beware. This is going to happen to you.   •   In short, I've uncovered a criminal conspiracy. And, the fun has begun. The US Federal Trade Commission (FTC), after my formal complaint was filed (with it's accompanying Affidavit) , has opened an investigation into this group's activities.   •   So, I expect, very soon, the appearance of US Federal Marshals.   •   Do you, Grendal, have an interest in having the people on this discussion list believe in your Pollyanna presentation? Just curious.   •   Do you think that, after the decision, and the collection, Lindhart would buy a small town in Illinois or elsewhere in the States, or perhaps an island somewhere? There's not that many good islands available - but, with this economy there are a lot of small towns available.   •   I am being very calm and matter-of-fact about my views. You should do the same.   •   You are just too biased, Grendal. You can't see the forest for the trees. It looks to me that you are reading "into" those documents - not "from" those documents.   •   Your reliance on personal insults clearly shows your insecurity in this matter. And, you are right to be insecure.   •   Sometimes you just make me laugh out loud - you try and sound so knowledgable.   •   You are letting your temper get away with you. Shame on you. Read, again what you just wrote. You need to drop the emotionlism and focus on the facts.   •   So, this time, will Spamhaus run off to Switzerland, then Russia, then China? Will Jenner & Block drop them instantly, or will Jenner & block be retained by those left holding the obligation bag in the US?   •   The case was finshed, as you say, the day Linford RAN from the courtroom.   •   Sorry, but you have no basis for your claim. None whatsoever.   •   So, my guess, is that the amount ($40 million, $80 million?), will be divided up between those from Spamhaus that the US Courts can easily find - the US volunteers.   •   I know this can be perplexing to some of you, but it gets eaier to understand if you realize that this case is ongoing in a US Court - not in the UK. What happens in the UK, besides the usual ass-kissing of the US government, is really not relevant. When the amount decision in the case is handed down in the US, no doubt it will be forwarded to the UK Courts, which will bend over backwards to help with enforcement.   •   About the money issue. I know that for someone who gets their income by scrounging through the couch cushions or feeding the neighbors' dogs while they're gone, the idea of "millions of dollars" is pretty much incomprehensible (sorry about the big word), so, I suggest, for now, that you just let the big kids handle this one.   •   Run over to the school library, young lady, and ask the librarian (that's the older woman wearing the glasses) where you can find a book that would tell you how to find out about the word "co- conspirator." Yes, yes, I know - they always try and make you get a library fcard and check out other books, but you can resist that.   •   I suspect that the "collection discovery" portion of this case will be very revealing. I suspect, also, that the process will bring down, completely, more than one company currently associated (co-conspiring) with Spamhaus.   •   The next time I'm feeling a little depressed I want some of that stuff you're smoking.   •   Could you back up your statement "Oh, by the way, Jenner & Block very obviously are not doing this case Pro Bono." with some facts, please? I can't find anything that backs up your words - and i looked in a lot of places.   •   Why is this "Denial" so importnt to you?   •   I'm not being rude here, when I ask "show me your source on that thinking. " You just made all that up.   •   I think that "Collection Discovery" will be the process that breaks down the various categories of "Spamhaus Volunteers." Those. I assume, that were directly involved in the damage process to e360, would be the most affected. if you change the phrase I use from "Spamhaus volunteer" to "Spamhaus co-conspirator" (a better definition I think), you will find it easier to wrap your mind around the problem, and come up with your own definition. Butm in the end, it will be up to the Court, helped along by the lawfirm selected to enforce the collection process.   •   No one knows, at this time, how much Judge Korkoras will award. There is much speculation - and it is only that.   •   This is a very serious subject we are discussing here. I think your spurts of anger are inappropriate. Surely you have something uselful to contribute?   •   It is my guess that Spamhaus, including those paying the legal bills, will get a note, or a phone call, from their current attorneys (whoever they may be at the time) that, in essence, says "You ain't going to like this...,"   •   You are over-analyzing what happened.   •   Spamhaus will write a check to e360 for the full amount ($80 million?). If either options (3) (a) and (b) become reality (and they most likely will) then the procees I call "collection Discovery" will begin in earnest. This effort will be to discover "The Real Spamhaus," those actually behind, and benefitting from, the daily operations of Spamhaus.   •   It appears to me that the case will proceed, quite comfortably, to a conclusion, in a the manner I expect it will.   •   So Jenner & Block threw Spamhaus a few bones in 2006. So what? We are in June of 2009 now. Who paid the Spamhaus legal bills for the remainder of 2006? Who paid the Spamhaus legal bills for 2007? Who paid the Spamhaus legal bills for 2008? Who paid the Spamhaus legal bills for the first half of 2009?   •   Please clarify your last message. Be a little more specific.   •   Has anyone ever told you that you are kind of ichy?   •   What law are you quoting? Can you show us a reference please? We're kind of EXACT here.   •   Huh?   •   No, Robert. You are not getting it. You need to sit down and talk to someone.   •   Did you pack a lunch today, to go to school, little girl? or are you eating out of the candy machine again? Uncle Chuck   •   What law are you referring to? Can you show us a reference? We like specific references in this thread. Thank you.   •   You failed to make an actual point with your comment. Could you be more specific? What part do you disagree with, and why - and please use some kind of reference.   •   You are getting overexcited. Keep reminding yourself that this is a simple discussion.   •   And, don't get discouraged. Unless, of course, you are a Spamhaus volunteer involved in what was done to e360. Then you can be discouraged, for your future is not bright.   •   You should sit down and talk to someone you know that is knowledgable about these sort of things.   •   That was a PATHETIC argument.   •   I know you are REALLY disappointed in this answer, but - Jenner & Block have officially made a list of the cases they are doing Pro Bono. This one isn't on it.   •   Oh, by the way, Jenner & Block very obviously are not doing this case Pro Bono.   •   What you really have to look at, right now, is "who" is giving Jenner & Block their instructions. That'll give you an idea where this is going to end up. Of course it isn't Steve Linford - it is the people writing the checks - the US volunteers?   •   Let's see - now you are claiming that "Tim Bolen," wait - let me adjust that for you - "Timmy Bolen" now controls the legal wing of Wikipedia? Wow! I've got to meet this guy.   •   The comes the reckoning. Prepare for that.   •   There is a place where you can get the simple argument to be used here, against the US volunteers. Go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil Read, first, the bottom line in the uppermost section that says "The doctrine is often used in cases where liability is found, but the corporation is insolvent."   •   You are just hoping for the best, and you are deluding yourself. Find someone to explain all this to you, carefully.   •   Simple legal stuff.   •   In the US sit those "US volunteers," with, in the eyes of the Court, bags of money. It is a simple case that those US volunteers are, in fact, Spamhaus's "alter ego."   •   The Judge can, for various reasons, which can be put on the table at any time, "augment" the decision amount.   •   You need to stop "vibrating" over this situation and take a more realistic approach.   •   A lot of these people are trying to deny what is going to happen, so they dodge, or ignore, the question. Then they make a fantasy "boogey-man" to focus on, instead of the oncoming tornado.   •   If they do run, or say they don't have the money to pay the judgment ($80 million?) then a whole new process starts, called "Collection Discovery," and, I beleive, the first questions put forth in Collection Discovery will, of course, be centered around asking "who, exactly, in the US, was involved in damaging e360, where, exactly were they physically sitting, in front of whose computer, who were they working for at the exact moment they acted to damage e360, who gained from their action, and in what way, etc."   •   You have reverted to raw anger, here.   •   When you get a little older, and those raging hormones start to receed, you'll hope no one remembers your obsession.   •   I'd be worried, for instance, that, perhaps, Judge Korkoras had a birthday party with his family, and his absolutely favorite great grandaughter came to him crying, after being spit on at school, saying " I don't think you're looney grampa, I wuv you..." You know? Or, maybe his wife came back from a day down at the Altar Society of the Greek Orthodox Catholic Church where she had been asked if her husband, of all those years, had been hospitalized for his condition?   •   For, there's $135 million claim on the table, and Federal Judges, after all, even though they are appointed, personally, by the President of the United States, are, after all, human.   •   I was beginning to think that NANAE had been left to a girl-child with strange sexual fantasies.   •   You know, of course, that once you resort to those tactics, everyone knows you have lost the argument.   •   No matter how many times I explain the same thing, each time trying to approach the problem in a slightly different way, some of you just refuse to "get it."   •   There are, in fact, rules of etiquette on the internet. Try to locate them, and try to apply them.   •   The volunteers, especially the US volunteers, have very much to be afraid of, I'd say.   •   Your legal theories are SO INTERESTING.   •   If you are a Spamhaus US volunteer with some responsibility for what happened, I think you need to find some survival techniques.   •   for the decision will be soon, and the collection process will begin within minutes of that decision.   •   You have to set your personal prejudices aside, here, and get into what "The Law" is all about.   •   Your legal ideas about what you think is happening are, well, interesting, to say the least.   •   I have to laugh, even though I'm trying very hard to be polite. You certainly seem "hung up" on this guy Tim Bolen. Why are you so afraid of him?   •   And, what you will see is "kneeling and begging" on the US volunteers' part.   •   It is usual even for prisoners being led from their cells to the death penalty room to stay calm - accepting, as it were, the inevitable.   •   You seem imbued with rampant hostility. Change your underwear.   •   I know that learning something new is time consuming, but it is really worth the efort.   •   Everything happened in the US, not the UK - so US law dominates. The US volunteers are screwed.   •   Your best strategy, here, is to keep your followers as mushrooms - feed them shit and keep them in the dark, lest they figure out how bad things really are - and come looking for you.   •   You seem very angry. You should talk to someone.   •   I think a very large community is looking to see how this will play out, including the government agents quietly patrolling these messages. For, the argument was never about the control of spam, now was it?   •   I'd guess that Judge Korkoras would not hesitate to send a Federal Warrant to Britain, and the British would honor it in a hearbeat.   •   The British courts ALWAYS go along with US Courts.   •   Why are you so worried? Do you have some peronal exposure in this? Even if you do, if you own a home it is likely that your homeowner's insurance may cover you for the first million.   •   Of course, the US volunteers came forward with bags of money, and hired a Chicago firm to allegedly "Defend Spamhaus," when, actually, of course, they were simpley trying to stave off the inevitable COLLECTION process, which they knew, of course, would be aimed at them - as they, the US volunteers, were, of course, the original attackers against e360, using the cover of "spamhaus" to make that assault - now weren't they?   •   "The Law" is really not that hard to understand - if you start at the right place.   •   Who's "ICANN?"   •   I'm anticipating the Western Division US Marshall squad oiling up the M-60s in anticipation of the raid on ICANN's offices enforcing the court's order   •   You are being unnecessarilly rude. It is a sign, of course, that you are unsure of your position.   •   For some, I'd guess, bankruptcy will be an avenue. For others, denial will be there for a very long time.   •   If you were, and/or are, a Spamhaus US volunteer, my guess is that your best move is to beg. And, try to explain to your employer why you put them at risk.   •   Get out the popcorn. The "collection process" will be fun to watch.   •   Once the judgment amount is set ($80 million?), then "collection discovery" begins.   •   I have never seen any documents that show that J&B is doing this for free. I doubt it. Law firms do not give away 1.5 million in litigation.   •   I'm beginning to think I'm trying to explain the word "concept" to a group of ADD/ADHD third graders, wired on candy bars and pop tarts, waiting for the morning recess bell, so they can head for the monkey bars and the swing set.   •   Get ti through your head that the Judgment is just the first part of what comes next - COLLECTION - and, I suspect, that segment will be bloody. Ask yourself - if you were Lindhart, and the Judge handed you unlimited collection power, would YOU use restraint? Of course not.   •   I think you need to learn something about how the law really works.   •   I'm trying to be patient here with you. I'm beginning to think you might not be objective about this situation. Do you have a personal interest in the outcome?   •   Of course, the US volunteers are, already, doing their best to avoid that - by paying Spamhaus's attorney fees as they go along. You didn't think Linford was paying the legal bills did you? And, certainly, you didn't believe that some attorney firm was doing all this legal work out of the goodness of their hearts, now did you?   •   The only thing savingthe US volunteers is the secrecy - and that will evaporate once the judgment is issued, and the judgment discovery begins.   •   You should stick with woodworking. Your knowledge of the law doesn't measure up. It is obvious that you, as the others, are in denial about the inevitable. But, you had best get used to the idea that disaster is heading towards the Spamhaus US volunteers. It is not speculation. You actually should read the case materials.   •   But, the reality is that Linford doesn't have $80 million, and has no access to it, so the collection will be refocused to the US volunteers - in earnest. That's where the money is.   •   After the Judge's decision - let's say $80 million, the decision will be sent to the British courts who will, automatically, issue an order for Linford to pay. Linford will not pay, but will either run off to some other European country, or will challenge the decisioin. If he challenges the decision in Britain he wlll have to put up money for Lindhart's court actions = that'sthe law in Britain.   •   You are engaging in wishful thinking. Lindhart is going to be able to buy his own small town after the judgment comes down.   •   Try and stay with reality.   •   Yup, the times are coming that the US volunteers feared the most - "the reckoning." I think that will e a good thing for the legitimate "Anti-spam" community. Sort of a cleansing.   •   Now, of course, there is desperation, as the final days are arriving, to determine "how much" the US volunteers are going to have to pay. Then, of course, begins the official collection process.   •   When it didn't work, Linford left the US volunteers hanging in the breeze, so to speak, and several of them had to step up and write BIG checks to mitigate the effects of the default judgment. That's still going on.   •   You must be reading something no one else is seeing. You have to read the "actual case," not what someone says about it.   •   Now, of course, Spamhuas has left the US volunteers to clean up for them - and they are trying to do that. But, once the amount is decided = then the collection process begins in earnest. I'll bet that some of the drama of the collection will probably televised on one of those shows like "Repo-Man..."   •   What you need to read up on is that there is a "Legal Process" that is followed and you seem to run it all together.   •   You could take a course at a Community College and get some understanding of how the law actually works. Then you'd have some understanding that would help you through what seems now to be overwhelming fro you.   •   Right now you are kind of like the German people in Berlin in 1945, looking west towards the horizon at the oncoming Russian Army - the men seeing death coming, and the women oiling their orifices so the first forty won't hurt so bad.   •   You need to try out something called "logic." At the moment, it appears you were one of the original Spamhaus legal strategists.   •   Are you really unaware that there is a group paying for the Spamhaus "secondary" Defense in Illinois?   •   The Spamhaus US volunteers have probably spent over two million dollars on legal fees, so far, trying to keep Lindhart from devouring them at will. Wake up. The wolf is at your door. The "big boys" are very much afraid, writing checks to Chicago lawyers, furioiusly.. So should you be.   •   Aren't you watching what is happening? It is unfortunate, but it is what it is. Screaming denial will do you no good.   •   Most likely only the US volunteers will be targeted first. Some of the US volunteers already know what's going to happen. That's why they put up the money for the second wave of Defense. Their only possible legal action is to try and get the judgment amount reduced.   •   What will really happen is that, after the dollar amount is decided ($80 million?), then Lindhart will make a demand for payment to Spamhaus corporate.   •   Gosh, you seem to get excited so easily, and you sound so angry. Try to calm yourself. The English Courts have had no authority over the American Courts since 1776, or thereabouts. No matter how much you scream and kick your feet, if you are a Spamhaus US volunteer after Lindhart gets his $60 million(?) dollar judgment, his collection attorneys are going to own your ass. Get prepared for it.   •   I know the case is a strain on you, and it should be, but you have to leave the legal dreamworld you've been living in. You screwed up. Take it like a man. Find the money. Antie up, so these poor volunteers don't go down the drain for your mistakes.   •   And that's where the US volunteers are now going to suffer - even more than having to pick up the legal tab so far. And they are doing that big time. What you need to worry about is whether or not there is a record of any volunteer activities on your part. For Lindhart, after the judgment amount is settled ($40 million?), gets the rights to just about any discovery he wants. If you are a US volunteer, he'll be able to look in your underwear drawer, every day, so to speak, until the judgment, and the judgment costs are settled. . His agents will be conferring with your employers reagarding your work schedule, matching it up with the times his company was damaged. Of course if records disappear and the judge sees gaping holes in data subpoenaed... If you are a US volunteer, you should be very worried.   •   You should do a little research to see what's coming to the Spamhaus US volunteers. Below is an explanation by one of those companies that collect after a judgment. Read it carefully. After that - go read the website. Did you think someone was picking up Spamhaus's lega ltab out of the goodness of their heart?   •   So, how much money has been spent on legal fees by the US volunteers, do far, to try and mitigate your original strategy?   •   They probably have already let the "collection" contracts, and the names, and photos, have been distributed. It all works on percentages, and the courts are very liberal with "collection costs."   •   Should everybody be worried? Lindhart has a judgment and all that has to be decided is "how much," and "who pays." Is it going to be you?   •   If Lindhart gets damages awarded won't he collect from the Spamhaus volunteers in the US first? He will, upon award, get access to all of Spamhaus's business records won't he? Won't Lindhart be able to find out exactly who was working on his account, and who (what company) they were working for at the time? Should we be worried?   •   Not so amused, in California.   •   And, so do you.   •   I think, that once e360 "discovers" the identities of the spamhaus "US volunteers," a whole lot more of these "conflicts of interest" will arise.   •   Follow this trail - SuperNews hosts Spamhaus. SuperNews, (usenet access) itself, is a competitive marketing venue to email marketing.. More, SuperNews is owned by Critical Path, Inc which markets, worldwide, a product for ISPs that is totally dependent on Spamhaus doing what it does. Critical Path, Inc., has its own mass internet marketing system which competes with email broadcasting. Read both of their websites carefully. Critical Path, Inc primary stockholder is Asian Conglomerate Cheung Kong Holdings.   •   Let me give you an example of what I mean about "volunteers" benefiting from what spamhaus is doing to e360. "Supernews," for instance, claims to have "volunteered" web hosting for spamhaus. Do they gain from this directly? Yes, I think they do. Why? Because "Supernews" is in the internet marketing business. In that, they compete with e360.   •   The spamhaus "US volunteers" really are e360's target - because they, the US volunteers, are the ones who created the problem, and benefited from the problems they created for e360Insight. They need to pay for that, personally, with money. Lots of it - as in "Exemplary Damages"...   •   Again, why?   •   Just take a look at the tone of the responses I got for my four separate broadcasts. These people are in a panic. And, they should be. They, almost literally, are spewing excrement.   •   Oh, yeah.   •   Are they in Diarrhea Mode?   •   Or, at least they thought that until a few days ago when I began to explain to them what I think is going to happen with the "US volunteers.". Now, I think, they are not so sure about their contention, at all. And, they shouldn't be.   •   But, whatever the reason, the real spamhaus, the "US volunteer group," just doesn't understand legal reality. They still, for instance, think e360 is going to have to collect a judgment from an out-of-of-work-musician in England.   •   I'd guess the "US volunteers" are having trouble communicating policy decisions - maybe (sarcasm intended) because it is hard to broadcast more than a mumble when you're trying to talk through a "white sheet with eyeholes," while trying to disguise your voice.   •   Yes, they were that dumb, and e360 made them pay for that. And today, there is no sign that they are any smarter. Why?   •   Their strategy was just plain childish. They, like a little kid on a playground ready to run away, shreiked "nyah, nyah, nyah, you can't catch me - I live in England." Attorneys for e360 had to wrinkle their eyebrows at that, and ask themselves "Is anybody really this dumb?"   •   There's no question in anyone's mind about spamhaus's original legal strategy in the e360 v. spamhaus Illinois Federal Court Case. It could be rated somewhere between "blatantly stupid" and "assinine."